[AndrewBoss]

On another thread the subject came up. Not to threadjack, I figured I'd make a new one.

Not to hijack the thread, but just out of curiosity, cliffdog, what's the problem you have with "pack leader"?

Cesar always goes on and on about a pack leader. My dogs aren't a pack, and even if they were, I'm not a dog, so I'm not their pack leader. I'm their owner, or their handler. My dogs obey me well, based on a system of corrections and rewards, but I don't feel the need to "dominate" my dogs like Cesar does, and most "pack psychology" trainers do. I have known a few homeless dogs, and I've never seen their owners try to "pack leader" them either.

I guess it's just a manner of semantics or choice of words cliffdog. I DO see myself as dominate to my dogs, which I consider "family" ... not just animals (which they are of course in the grand scheme of things). Not sure what that makes me LOL ... "pack leader" just seemed the closest analogy.

That's where it left off.

In response...

I see myself as a tier above my dogs, with me being a human, naturally their "boss", and them being dogs, animals, lesser by nature. Therefor I am not a part of their "pack". My problem with the "pack" ideology of training is that the practitioners of such usually feel the need to force their dogs to submit through violence... such as Cesar, who kicks and strangles dogs into a "calm, submissive state". This is needless, stupid, and can ruin a dog, and to mention the subject of the initial thread, I've never seen a homeless person do this to their dog.

[Caluabdum]

No, I don't. I love Slayer but she is not the same species and we are not a pack. I am her owner. She listens to me and respects me.

[Petrushkaukrop]

AHhhhh ... I see your point cliffdog. In that regard concerning the use of "violence' and physical coercion, I too find it appalling. I never have nor would I strike or force a dog to submit to me or my wishes. I KNOW some on here not only would, but have and are apparently damn proud of it !!!

... and maybe a "pack leader" in the canine world WOULD of course, but I don't see it as necessary or humane. Humans have skills, intelligence and tools that dogs don't have. I like to work smarter, not harder LOL.

Regardless of how my dogs are trained and come to learn and respect my dominance over them, that makes me their "leader". They look to me for direction and "leadership", perhaps even their protection.

My dog(s) and I are NOT ... family ... OR ... a pack ... so what are we ??

I see myself as more than an "owner" and I see my pets as more than mere animals or livestock. Both my dogs and I have an emotional perhaps, or at the very least, a dependence on one another. If that were not true, Rowdy would not have keep escaping his original owner and insisting I give him a home ... and I would not have been so devastated at the loss of Rowdy for instance, when I had to make a hard decision.

Dogs are dogs and humans are humans. We both eat, sleep and breathe and that is a connection. If at some point in the owner/dog relationship ... I am not 'pack leader", then what am I ??

Do you think my dog(s) see me much differently than they would a "pack leader" ??

[HedoShoodovex]

I'm not a pack leader. I am GOD. There's a difference.

[detskpit]

lol, It matters not how you view yourself, it matters how the dog views you, the dog is oblivious to your reasoning

[Petrushkaukrop]

LMAO @ LilianaLove. Brilliant !!!

And back at T.MAC ... If it matters how the dog views me ... do you think they see me as their "pack leader" if we live together 24/7 and I am dominate to them ??

[detskpit]

LMAO @ LilianaLove. Brilliant !!!

And back at T.MAC ... If it matters how the dog views me ... do you think they see me as their "pack leader" if we live together 24/7 and I am dominate to them ??

I don't know, you tell me what else a dog can view you as?,.drinking buddy?,.the only concept a dog has is the concept of "pack",.

[Petrushkaukrop]

yep ... exactly !!!

[HedoShoodovex]

I'm serious, well, I was being funny, but serious at the same time.
In a "pack", there is room for conflict. There is a small chance for the 'lesser' animal to dominate the "pack leader".
You don't dominate god. God rules all. He created you. He puts food in your bowl and protects you from evil. Thus, you respect the crap out of god. What god says goes. And if you do something sinful, you face the wrath of god.
My dogs have all felt "the wrath of god". They choose not to sin.

[Petrushkaukrop]

LilianaLove, there were most certainly times when Rowdy tried to dominate me, just as he might have tried in a pack.

[AndrewBoss]

I believe that Bonnie is the "pack leader". She dominates Abbey. But I am above her. I don't believe she sees me as part of the "pack". She doesn't act around me, the way that Abbey acts around her. But she does obey me and, I suppose, "respect" me, though I don't know that dogs are particularly capable of "respect" in the way that most people would think of it.

I suppose in the end it is semantics. But I largely avoid the term due to the connotation it has come to have, thanks to people like Cesar, that to be "pack leader" you must force your dog into submission. I have never "dominated" Bonnie. She knows her place because I offer firm leadership. I apply "NILIF" tactics (I didn't even know there was a name for it before I came to this forum, lol) and I reward her for good behavior, and correct her for bad behavior. Now, by "correction", I don't mean kicking her in the stomach or strangling her into a calm submissive state. I give her a mild collar correction (flat collar, it's all she needs) and she knows she did wrong without being harmed, and so she corrects her behavior.

It's kind of like how I like to play video games, but I avoid the term "gamer". Technically that's what I am, if I play games. But it has another meaning attached to it, that a "gamer" is someone who is a die-hard about games, obsessed and knows everything about them, lives in their mother's basement, etc. It's not that I am not the dog's "leader" so much as that I don't fit into the category of what "pack leader" has come to mean in the dog handling world.

And I don't mean to simplify the relationship between dogs and people when I distinguish between human and dog. Bonnie is my best friend, she matters very much to me, and I don't think separating myself from her "pack" influences that relationship at all.

[detskpit]

I'm serious, well, I was being funny, but serious at the same time.
In a "pack", there is room for conflict. There is a small chance for the 'lesser' animal to dominate the "pack leader".
You don't dominate god. God rules all. He created you. He puts food in your bowl and protects you from evil. Thus, you respect the crap out of god. What god says goes. And if you do something sinful, you face the wrath of god.
My dogs have all felt "the wrath of god". They choose not to sin.

lol,..umm,..ok?,.god huh?,.

[avaissema]

There is no such thing as a 'pack' leader in the dog world. It is flawed. You have breeding male and female in a pack. The research that came up with the term 'pack leader' was erred and it has been corrected.

[detskpit]

There is no such thing as a 'pack' leader in the dog world. It is flawed. You have breeding male and female in a pack. The research that came up with the term 'pack leader' was erred and it has been corrected.

god and worshipers? I know my dogs need to up the tithing's a bit

[Petrushkaukrop]

cliffdog, I don't touch my dog(s) at all to correct them. Not snatch on the collar or anything. They learn my voice inflections and tone and behave accordingly. We have communication and understanding.

[HedoShoodovex]

lol,..umm,..ok?,.god huh?,.

Yup. God. You don't fuck with God.

[detskpit]

Yup. God. You don't fuck with God.

I doubt dogs are dumb enough to believe in a "god"

[AndrewBoss]

I use a collar correction on Bonnie because of SAR. If she gets distracted, for instance by another dog while we are doing off-leash heeling, I reach down and give her collar a little tug to get her attention. She hasn't needed it lately since she's gotten to where she's really focused on me during training. Although really it's not looking as though she's going to excel at SAR anyways, not having quite the right drives for it...

[Petrushkaukrop]

Sounds like you and Bonnie are getting through that bonding phase just fine cliffdog. She's learning ... Cool.

[bonyrek]

I guess I would think of myself as the "pack leader", though to be clear, I think Cesar is an idiot & I don't try to be like him at all.

But if I'm at the hay fields with the dogs, and they're running loose, doing their own thing, I can say "Let's go" and turn around & start heading back to the car. They will stop what they're doing & RUN to catch up w/ me. Technically, they're free to do whatever they want. They could run away if they wanted to. But they WANT to stay w/ me. To them, in their minds, I am the Leader.

I've never really given it a lot of thought, but that was the first thing that came to mind.