[SetSnonejog]

BRAVO!!!!!

Okay watched the video....I honestly have no problem with the use of a shock collar and it was not even used in the video. I was more concerned that the guys was going to get bit trying to put on the muzzle. But I think he did a good job with the dog.

Agreed! I'm not sure exactly how the shock collar fit into the training; and my first comment was that using one w/ a FA dog didn't seem like a good idea...but I have to say whatever this trainer did...seems to have worked beautifully. And the dog looks quite happy and well adjusted.

So may people would have looked at the behaviors in the beginning of the tape; which were granted concerning - and decided right then and there to euthanise the dog because it was "unstable". Almost everyone here if this scenario were presented on the forum would recommend the dog be PTS and they would back that up by insisting that the dog was "unstable" and that "sound pit bulls never show any sort of aggression towards people at all, ever, for any reason".

And I think that would be a damn shame in many instances...because if you look at the way this dog responded to training...it was clearly not unstable; and while it has some issues and may not be the perfect representative of the standard of the breed...not all dogs are the perfect representatives of their standards. I always thought standards were there to determine which dogs should be bred and which dogs should get best in show; not as a code to measure your dog by to determine whether it lives or dies.

So in this case, I have to agree with Ganga; refusing to put the work into a dog like this is more selfish, than accusing someone willing to do it of selfishness. This FA dog certainly looks happy, and content to me; no one can say this dog is suffering or not enjoying a good quality of life; although I'm sure people would have made that argument based solely on the pre-training footage.

[UFJon]

Agreed Jazzy.....

For me most of the time it is not so much someone telling another person to put their dog down but how they go about doing so. 90% of the time they never suggest that the dog go in for a health check and 99.9% of the time they never suggest the do get some training nor do they ask if the OP has done these two things. It is just "Put the damn dog down" with out compassion and lack of sympathy.

When someone comes to a public forum they are looking for answers, solutions and a kind word and trust me I am not one to sugar coat crap for people, but I do have a heart for those who may sooner or later have to have a loved dog PTS, I have been there and done that with a man biter and yes I got the cold "Put the damn dog down" line but it was the ones who said ~sorry~ have you tried this or that....those were the people I admired and looked up too. When faced with these situations it is never ever easy and they last thing people need are harsh words because when we log off we are the ones dealing with the issue not them and it is our final decision on what we have to do but that should only come after we have tried all we can try to help correct the problem.

I use to be a very active member of this forum and threads like this one ad a few other things has kept me from posting a lot any more. I am sick of the rudeness and the forum leaders here do a wonderful job of trying to keep things on track and running smooth but there is no way they can edit, delete and clean up every un-like opinion. It is about as bad as telling people to "Spay abort" Yeah I guess they think it makes them sound all big bad and knowing, but what they fail to know is there are very few vets that will do this and then they are the very ones who will bitch and moan about culling a pup. I just don't get it! Another thing is they do not have a clue, they or they fail to remember that once did not know shit either, hell most of them did not know shit before they came here to PBC and now they think they are freaking "Pit Bull" experts Hell most of them do not even own a real APBT....See now I am ranting.....lol

Guess maybe I should post more, at least someone can step in when the bandwagon gets on it's ignorant high horse. We should never lose sight that there is a real person on the other end of a screen name, we can either help them or run them off and if we run them off it could spell trouble for our breed as a whole....

[nilliraq]

I don't remember HOW this guy ended up on my friend's list on Facebook, but he did. He's a dog trainer, and has a rescued blue bully who he is doing great PR work with. We've chatted a few times, talked about training... I thought the guy was pretty cool!

Then I see a video he posted of him 'rehabilitating' a fear biting Pit Bull

By the end of the video, the dog is back at home... leashed, with a shock collar on. A stranger comes in, the owner walks the dog up to him, the stranger hands it food, then the owner promptly walks it back to its bed and sticks it there. The stranger is then allowed to come sit down. Ohhh yes... so successful Though I must say, an improvement over when the trainer went to get the dog and it was lunging and snapping at him

It must just be me... but why?! I won't drag "other forum drama" over by mentioning any names, but I am being bashed for suggesting euthanasia of a mixed breed dog who is suddenly lunging at everyone and has actually make contact and left a pretty serious bite on someone. Everyone else is suggesting to muzzle the dog in public, or place him in a sanctuary. Am I crazy for not considering either of those options to be good for the dog?! Am I crazy for instantly thinking "Take it outback and shoot it!" when I see a Pit Bull lunging and snapping at a stranger out of sheer terror?!

[Promalada]

that's human aggression not fear biting. a fear biter wouldn't keep lunging at a stranger. a fear biter would tuck its tail go to a corner and growl at a stranger who got close. if the stranger got to close then the fear biter would snap and bite.

[nilliraq]

I'm quite sure I know the difference.

I guess I should have been more clear that I am talking about TWO different situations here...
The first was a fear biting Pit Bull that was in the trainer's video.
The second is a situation where a dog is clearly an unstable mess, but is a mix breed (no pit bull), and is lunging randomly at people, that is owned by someone on another forum.

My overall point was people 'rehabilitating' and using things like muzzles/sanctuaries for dogs that should be put to sleep, in my opinion.

[DoroKickcrofe]

I think your right Teal, the dog should be put down, I know if I had a dog that started showing DA, no matter how much I love that dog, it would be to the vet for a check and if nothing was found, it would be put down, no room in my life for a liability like that

[UFJon]

I do not and will not tolerate a man biter, with that said if the dog is a beloved pet that has suddenly started to posses this behavior my first advice would be a complete Vet check to make sure there is no underlying health issues. Just because I will not tolerate a man biter does not mean there are those out there willing to take on the challenge and responsibility that comes with owning and containing such a dog. I have been there and done that and in the end I did have the dog PTS, I think the biggest thing is it is easy for us that sit on the out side of a situation to say "Put the dog down!" it is often said without regard to the owners love for the dog. I made the choice a few years back when we had a member come her talking about her dog biting and I and others jumped on the PTS wagon and the owner took out advice, I later learned the dog was only 7 months old, just a pup I said after that I would never tell anyone to PTS unless I had all the facts.

Since I do not know all the facts on this case I cannot jump on the PTS wagon. There is no written rule that says "Once a man biter always a man biter" there are dogs that can be rehabilitated and muzzles are the responsible thing to do if there is a possibility that the dog may bite someone and if there are trained sanctuaries that are willing to take on and contain a dog like this then it is the owners choice if they would rather see the dog live. As owners we can only give advice and try to educate but the choice is the owners call and not ours.

[esconsise]

You aren't the only one that thinks the other dog should be put down. I mentioned it earlier in the thread too. That dog is a lawsuit waiting to happen (if one isn't already in progress!).

[UFJon]

Can someone PM me a link to where this conversation is taking place?

[SetSnonejog]

Well this is a slippery slope.

On the one hand; as I'm sure everyone knows by now: for myself as an owner I am in the camp of managing behavior vs. euthanasia. Just my personal preference, if I feel I could manage it and do it in a way that would minimize liability and provide the dog with what I would consider a decent quality of life...I would chose that option and not really consider it a big deal. Just life, shit happens, you make adjustments, show goes on.

I wouldn't push my point of view on anyone else and would respect that for some people what I consider minor adjustments are not doable or acceptable.

I also think in evaluating a situation where one is choosing to manage behavior vs. euthanasia it really depends upon the level of committment the people are willing to make, their ability to be consistently responsible and accept that mistakes are not an option, and their knowledge of or willingness to acquire quickly relevant knowledge of canine behavior and trainig techniques.

I would be much more comfortable doing it for myself vs. trying to evaluate who was capable of doing it and trying to teach them as the trainer is doing. I would hope that as part of his work he evaluates the entire situation and recognizes when a behavior plan is reasonable, but the owners likely aren't able to follow it.

That said; personally not knowing much about the situation; I'm not real comfortable with his approach to the first situation, my gut just says I wouldn't handle it that way. I wouldn't use a shock collar on a dog with fear issues. For risk managment I would have the dog crated until the dog and the guest were comfortable enough with each other that my gut told me there was very little liklihood of an issue (and if you need to have a shock collar on for back up, that doesn't seem to be the case). But really, worse case scenario...the dog doesn't need to be around strangers; that's the easiest and most risk free solution.

The mixed breed; yeah personally I would work with him...however I'm also fascinated by dog behavior so in some sense I suppose it would be a bit like a science project for me. . The thing would be to just make risk management a priority. If you can guarantee the safety of everyone who isn't you, then I see no problem in working with a dog - the right person with the right approach might be very successful. It's not like euthanasia isn't always on the menu down the line.

As far as the sanctuary...It comes down to quality of life for me; so I am on the fence. One situation I would consider a sanctuary would be if the dog's behaviors really weren't that difficult to modify but the owners chose not to or didn't know how to...and if a decent sanctuary were available (does that happen?) where the dog could have a reasonable quality of life...then I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don't see the sense of sending a dog to live out it's life somewhere in complete isolation where people have to shove it's food under a door in the cage because you can't get near the dog.

[UFJon]

Thanks for sending me the link......

I never seen a video, but the dog in question is not a "Pit Bull" not even a "Pit Bull" mix he looks to be a GSD mix and those dogs jobs are to protect. Much like our breed of choice has been bred for dog on dog combat GSD have been bred to guard and protect. That dogs biggest problem is lack of training and since they live in an apartment more then likely lack of exercise. Telling someone to PTS a GSD for doing what it was bred to do is about as ignorant as telling an APBT owner to PTS a APBT for being DA.

I am not even sure why this was brought to this forum unless you just felt you needed someone to say you were right in your advice, and that could have very well be the case had that been a APBT or APBT mix but it is not even close. They have been given great advice on that forum. Yes, the dog needs a muzzle until properly trained and if the owner is not willing to invest in such training it needs to be homed with someone who will....but PTS no!

---------- Post added at 08:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 AM ----------

Can someone send me a link to the video in question and was the video of the GSD mix in question?

[BiseCreesia]

well that may be YOUR opinion, but we all know what they say about opinions..

IMO, it's not because YOU don't want to deal with a HA dog (or can't) that you should suggest others to put their dogs down for what YOU will not or can not do.
if my dog doesn't like anyone esle but the people living directly with him, I couldn't give 2 shits.
I buy dogs for myself, not for some random strangers to enjoy it.

now you can talk about the quality of life the dog has, but that isn't much of an argument with HA dogs, only with FA ones.
because if a HA dog really had such a bad quality of life wanting to go after everyone, so would a dog aggressive dog.

---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------

the "you" is a general statement, not specially directed at anyone

[Julik19]

I buy dogs for myself, not for some random strangers to enjoy it............i like that one ganja j

[esconsise]

The other dog mentioned has gone after family members, btw. It's not just a stranger issue.

And sorry, just because he's a mutt that may have some GSD in him (I see more Husky than anything) doesn't give him the right to bite people. I've been around GSD's that are trained in protection work, police dogs, etc., and have never been bit by one of them.

[Julik19]

i take it that the GSD you have come across were pure bred well trained dogs ? with mixed breed dogs there is always the element of doubt,!! hence pedegree breeding..

[forexsoft]

I think a dog that is HA towards it's owners should be put down. Point blank. Especially a dog that can do some serious damage...that shit is no game. Now, a dog that's HA towards strangers...I guess that would depend on the person. I honestly wouldn't mind having a dog that was HA to strangers because he would protect me. I don't have a dog so that other people can come up and pet it, I have a dog for me. Fear biting...I think it would be better, if the dog can't be worked with, to put it down. It has to be hard on the animal to be so scared. But yeah, a dog that bites his owner, IMO, should be PTS. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

[Julik19]

my mates weinmara (w/e) bit me and scarred my lip.lol i told him that if his dog bites me again for little or no reason,,,i will pull it"s front legs apart,,the dog is RIP, old age he listened !

[lovespellszz]

*I have not seen this video or read the thread being discussed.*

Being a GSD or GSD mix is no excuse for randomly lunging at people and certainly not children or family members.

[eCw56dzY]

The other dog mentioned has gone after family members, btw. It's not just a stranger issue.

And sorry, just because he's a mutt that may have some GSD in him (I see more Husky than anything) doesn't give him the right to bite people. I've been around GSD's that are trained in protection work, police dogs, etc., and have never been bit by one of them.

i expect my gsd to want to bite someone. thats her job. has she? no. but thats a bit different (even though mine is also mentally freakin retarded lol)

[Julik19]

my dad and grandad used to breed German shepherds. If ya needed biting ya got bitten!! propper deutsch wulfhunts!!