[finnmontserrat]

Why do you think a ha apbt should be pts?

I have my reasons, now i'd like to hear yours.

[alecaf]

I think it's been discussed for quite alot already but I'll still say that this is a fault specially if you will just have this HA dog as a pet. If you have other purpose than pet.. I can have second thoughts but still conditional. This goes for any other dog, not just APBT.

[Anaedilla]

If a dog is not going to be bred and you can 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt control it, I wouldn't euthanize.

Now that is the provision that the dog is good with me/family. Otherwise, it's a dirt nap.

[Unakjyfk]

Similar to what SineadsMom but these are my criteria:

Firstly establish it is definitely HA and not some other issue where someone with no dog experience thinks because the dog growled at them or nipped their finger playing it's going to grow into a vicious man biter.

So assuming it is beyond doubt HA, and assuming we are talking about "pit bulls" and not dogs that traditionally have some degree of HA then:

Is it in a shelter (or waiting in a foster environment)? Tough, hard enough making sure a stable dog gets into a sane, good home. I wouldn't want to be the one to blame for putting a biter there.

Is it already in someone's home as their pet? This is where I don't agree with what everyone else says 90% of the time because the fact is it ain't their dog. It is the decision of the owner and the owner only. But it will only remain the owner's decision to make IF:

1. The owner is sufficiently experienced with dogs to deal with it effectively.
2. The owner understands the risks and knows how to manage/control/contain them.
3. The dog will not be bred, unless it is a guarding breed and the HA is desired and controllable.
4. The dog is NEVER allowed to be in a situation where it can attack someone (the exception on this for me would be a guarding dog who can attack when doing so is appropriate). I've been there on this, the dog was ruled dangerous and had to be muzzled and on leash at all times if it was out, it could only be outside off leash if it was in a kennel that had a concrete floor, walls embedded into the concrete, was covered etc. The dog bit someone. The owner (my roommate) told the "victim" not to continue doing what he was doing, the "victim" didn't listen and 100 some pounds of Rottweiler convinced him real quick why my roommate had asked him (very politely I might add) not to continue doing what he was doing. He was a good dog so we made absolutely sure he could never get in trouble again as long as he lived.
5. The owner is willing to put in the time, deal with the inconvenience, and anything else that is involved in making sure of the above. (We spent one of our weekends building the kennel for him, adjusted our schedules to walk him when less people would be out, etc.)
6. The owner is willing to kill the dog if they cannot accomplish the above.

I think the majority of people don't want to deal with the above when it is simpler just to drop the dog and move on. For a "pit bull" it is serious defect, for other breeds not quite as much but still an issue and (again saying it is definite HA and not lack of training, owner stupidity, medical problems, etc.) the owner has to determine the risks and the value of taking on those risks.

If they cannot, the city/county/neighbors etc. will step in and handle it their way. At that point the owner is usually screwed.

I honestly don't believe anyone should EVER have to go to an online forum and ask people WHAT SHOULD I DO? As a dog owner you should already know if the situation arises how you will handle it and evaluate each dog in your life as you have to. But lots of people get dogs never thinking breed A may behave differently and have different problems to manage than breed B or C and often never really understanding that dog's do dog things. Dog things are not people things. So the dog acts like an animal not a child and there they are freaking out going "he did this, what should I do?"

These are people that probably should euth and get a pet rock instead.

Ah, just noticed you specified APBT in the thread title.

[boffincash]

I just truely believe they are defective. It's that simple.

[Anaedilla]

Similar to what SineadsMom but these are my criteria:

Firstly establish it is definitely HA and not some other issue where someone with no dog experience thinks because the dog growled at them or nipped their finger playing it's going to grow into a vicious man biter.

So assuming it is beyond doubt HA, and assuming we are talking about "pit bulls" and not dogs that traditionally have some degree of HA then:

Is it in a shelter (or waiting in a foster environment)? Tough, hard enough making sure a stable dog gets into a sane, good home. I wouldn't want to be the one to blame for putting a biter there.

Is it already in someone's home as their pet? This is where I don't agree with what everyone else says 90% of the time because the fact is it ain't their dog. It is the decision of the owner and the owner only. But it will only remain the owner's decision to make IF:

1. The owner is sufficiently experienced with dogs to deal with it effectively.
2. The owner understands the risks and knows how to manage/control/contain them.
3. The dog will not be bred, unless it is a guarding breed and the HA is desired and controllable.
4. The dog is NEVER allowed to be in a situation where it can attack someone (the exception on this for me would be a guarding dog who can attack when doing so is appropriate). I've been there on this, the dog was ruled dangerous and had to be muzzled and on leash at all times if it was out, it could only be outside off leash if it was in a kennel that had a concrete floor, walls embedded into the concrete, was covered etc. The dog bit someone. The owner (my roommate) told the "victim" not to continue doing what he was doing, the "victim" didn't listen and 100 some pounds of Rottweiler convinced him real quick why my roommate had asked him (very politely I might add) not to continue doing what he was doing. He was a good dog so we made absolutely sure he could never get in trouble again as long as he lived.
5. The owner is willing to put in the time, deal with the inconvenience, and anything else that is involved in making sure of the above. (We spent one of our weekends building the kennel for him, adjusted our schedules to walk him when less people would be out, etc.)
6. The owner is willing to kill the dog if they cannot accomplish the above.

I think the majority of people don't want to deal with the above when it is simpler just to drop the dog and move on. For a "pit bull" it is serious defect, for other breeds not quite as much but still an issue and (again saying it is definite HA and not lack of training, owner stupidity, medical problems, etc.) the owner has to determine the risks and the value of taking on those risks.

If they cannot, the city/county/neighbors etc. will step in and handle it their way. At that point the owner is usually screwed.

I honestly don't believe anyone should EVER have to go to an online forum and ask people WHAT SHOULD I DO? As a dog owner you should already know if the situation arises how you will handle it and evaluate each dog in your life as you have to. But lots of people get dogs never thinking breed A may behave differently and have different problems to manage than breed B or C and often never really understanding that dog's do dog things. Dog things are not people things. So the dog acts like an animal not a child and there they are freaking out going "he did this, what should I do?"

These are people that probably should euth and get a pet rock instead.

Ah, just noticed you specified APBT in the thread title.

Excellent post.

As I've posted previously on here, I grew up with a GSD that was very aggressive towards people she didn't grow up with and also very dog aggressive. However, she was pretty tightly obedience trained and we managed her. It was a huge pain in the ass, but honestly, I consider it worth it because she was SOOO good with the family, and despite the fact that she wanted to kill most people/dogs, she'd let herself get beat up by the cats, for some reason.

Mick WAS fear-aggressive towards children when he was younger, and now he's good with them. He outgrew the fear aggression with them by the time he was two. Personally, I think kids abused him, because he'd freak out by the sight of small kids (8yrs+ was always a-okay). Now he pretty much likes all kids, but he's only had positive experiences with them since I've had him, and I've put a lot of work into ensuring that.

He's not an easy dog. He can be very dog aggressive with certain breeds, but I love him. And I do not consider DA a fault. It's actually very common in Border Collies, but the fur mommies often like to call it "reactive." The plain truth is, a lot of the time, they just don't like other dogs. They tend to be very serious, and not like dogs that get in their way.

Whenever I own a bunch of land myself, I'm gonna get sheep and a few Marrema dogs. I expect those dogs to be pretty aggressive. It's their job.

On edit: My post doesn't have to do with APBTs. Though, if I did have a HA APBT, my original post in this thread would stand.

[smokeberly]

personally i dont think apbt,s make great pets......so unfortunately they have been put in an unnatural position whereby some folk who are totally inadequate owners can easily own them......meaning ANY human aggressive dog must be put to sleep for obvious reasons......

whether its the breeds fault or societies fault is debatable but people are more important than dogs so a human aggressive dog simply has to go.....theres 101 reasons why.

[Tryphadz]

Because there are way too many completely stable ones out there to deal with truly HA ones. For me personally, I have little tolerance for HA in ANY breed, for the same reason; too many nice dogs out there being PTS because there aren't enough homes.

I also think there aren't enough responsible homes to deal with an HA dog, so it could be a potential disaster if a person were to keep one. Sure, some people can manage them, but not most.

[Gymnfacymoota]

Great post Kady! Just as was stated there are too many other stable dogs out there in need of homes that are being put to sleep so why waste time on the HA dogs when they are too much of a liability??

[M1iFiNmC]

The potential for chaos if the trait were to become widespread is the main reason. However, it also depends what you have the dog for. A dog which is suspicious of strangers is of benefit if you want a deterrent dog.

[Gymnfacymoota]

The potential for chaos if the trait were to become widespread is the main reason. However, it also depends what you have the dog for. A dog which is suspicious of strangers is of benefit if you want a deterrent dog.

Then get a guardian breed. The APBT should show NO signs of HA to a non threatening stranger.

[M1iFiNmC]

But why, when a well trained apbt can be as effective as the best german bred guard dogs at a fraction of the cost? Besides which, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. What sense does it make to destroy a perfectly good guard dog because of its breed? The guardian breed you replace it with may not do the job as well. I used to have a high and mighty attitude but after speaking with guys who know their stuff, I had to concede that what people do with their dogs is up to them. There is no point in me or anyone else jumping up and down about it.

[Gymnfacymoota]

The APBT wasn't bred to attack people. That's why very few do well in protection sports. Just because a dog is HA doesn't make it a good guard dog. If a stranger is just passing by and you have a dog lunging at them sure it will deter the person but that dog is clearly not stable and needs to be PTS.

[Qzmsdoem]

A truly HA dog to me is one that sees all strangers, and perhaps even thier owner as a threat. To me those are mentally unstable dogs and should be put down. Even gaurdian breeds should be able to tell the diff between a threat and a non threat.

But at the same time I don't buy the whole APBT make poor gaurd dogs. Too many early books on the apbt, such as thoughs written by RS, mention the APBT as an excellant gaurd dog for me to believe that the APBT sucks as one. I truly don't believe that dogmen actually bred for a human friendly dog, that just came along naturaly.

[ProomoSam]

A true HA dog has an unstable and unpredictable temperament (aka will gladly attack its owner just as soon as it would a stranger without provocation.) Why would you want a dog like that?

[shashaffff]

I think the idea that a good APBT will never, ever bite under any condition is somewhat overdone these days as a way to cover our asses when a bulldog does bite someone.

"HA" is a broad, singular term that can describe many situations. But, if the owner is capable of managing the dog and knows what he or she is doing... It's none of my business.

I have a dog with a shiesty temperament, although he has mellowed out considerably in his old age. He's still the best damn thing to ever happen to me, so I'll be damned if I let anyone try to tell me he needs a dirt nap.

[Progniusis]

I think if any dog is human aggressive (true human aggression) regardless of breed it should be put to sleep.
Walking around with a human aggressive dog or keeping a human aggressive dog around is like having a loaded gun with the safety off. Its way too risky and no matter how hard you try to keep this dog from people at some point in the dogs life it will be around people and kids. And it could be disasterous, just like say that was a kid getting a hold of the gun with the safety off.

Not to compare dogs to guns but what I am saying is its the responsibility of the dog owner to keep their dog from being a public threat. And a human aggressive dog is an unstable dog and the results could be very very bad. So I believe the responsible thing to do after being evaluated for health issues and being evaluated by a professional dog behavior expert. If thy dog is human aggressive its better for everyone involved for the dog to be put down.

[Virosponna]

I think the idea that a good APBT will never, ever bite under any condition is somewhat overdone these days as a way to cover our asses when a bulldog does bite someone.

"HA" is a broad, singular term that can describe many situations. But, if the owner is capable of managing the dog and knows what he or she is doing... It's none of my business.

I have a dog with a shiesty temperament, although he has mellowed out considerably in his old age. He's still the best damn thing to ever happen to me, so I'll be damned if I let anyone try to tell me he needs a dirt nap.

Very, very well put. I agree completely.

There is obviously a difference in terms of dogs you breed (which imo breeding should only be between dogs of the absolute best of best temperments imaginable because there are already sooo many dogs out there; I really believe one needs to have a very good reason for bringing more into the world.)

And there is obviously a difference regarding dogs that are pulled from shelters by rescuers to then be turned over to someone else - generally a complete stranger. There is an element of liability there...and I can understand placing only the most stable of dogs.

However in personal situations where someone has aquired a dog that turns out to have issues...that imo...is entirely their business.

What they don't have a right to do is to allow their dog to put anyone else at risk through their irresponsible and negligent behavior.

However if someone wants to take on the reponsibility and make whatever sacrifices are necessary to manage a "questionable" dog safely in the secured privacy of their own home, and is willing to do so responsibly...then that imo...is their right and no one else's concern, regardless of breed.

[littlePen]

I just truely believe they are defective. It's that simple.

This, and I won't jeopardize humans because of it.

[gogona]

yep, in an apbt H.A. is a defect... and one that you can take no chances with and should not pass on....