[first_pr]

hey guys i was just wondering about game bred APBT's.
i hear the word game bred being thrown around alot and i know the only way to truly test gameness in the breed is to match them against one another. but since that has been illegal for some time now i am just curious as to how ppl can call the dogs game bred?
are they just classed game bred through the bloodline cos they grandsire or something like that may have been proven game when it was all legal?
or are these game bred APBTs of today secretly matched and classed as game?
its just one thing i do not really understand and would like to gain some sort of understanding thanks guys and girls
sorry guys i just get bored sometimes and my mind start wondering about things lol
and sorry if this type of thread has previouslt been posted.

[DoctorWeryDolt]

People still fight dogs today, you can see in some pedigree databases dogs are titles with wins. They word things in code when describing, but some are blunt about it. It is all underground, but there are still organized groups participating, pairing and titling dogs. I cant believe none of these groups dont do anything about it, i have seen guys with their name, kennel name and dogs record blatantly stated on pedigree site. Unfortunately it will probably never end.

[Misiotoagodia]

hey guys i was just wondering about game bred APBT's.
i hear the word game bred being thrown around alot and i know the only way to truly test gameness in the breed is to match them against one another. but since that has been illegal for some time now i am just curious as to how ppl can call the dogs game bred?
are they just classed game bred through the bloodline cos they grandsire or something like that may have been proven game when it was all legal?
or are these game bred APBTs of today secretly matched and classed as game?
its just one thing i do not really understand and would like to gain some sort of understanding thanks guys and girls
sorry guys i just get bored sometimes and my mind start wondering about things lol
and sorry if this type of thread has previouslt been posted.

It's already been discussed here and there but that's OK!

Here is my (admittedly limited) understanding: "Game" means the dog itself has actually been tested and proven. And yes that would mean (in North America and many other places) that the testing (aka matching, rolling, fighting) has been done in the illegal underground.

"Game bred" is a little more subjective but I think it means one or both of its parents had to have been tested, (although I may be wrong abut that; and maybe some people have other criteria such as, one or more of the ancestors within x-generations has been tested game; such as three of four generations?) But again in the U.S. that would of course mean it had still been done long after it had become illegal.

Some people are happy with a game bred "type" that may have some of the old game lines in it and/or just displays the classic game dog characteristics. Such as, first and foremost superb temperament (completely non HA but DA is acceptable and managed), and has the classic "look" (compact, well proportioned, squared off, well "ripped," NOT squat, lanky, chunky, or oversized, etc.)

Someone correct me if I am mistaken

[first_pr]

yeah i knew it still went on in the underground but i didnt realise it was displayed plainly as you said it was still lol.

and buddys mom so say some people on these and other forums saying their dogs not anyone in particular are game bred may just mean that one or some of its ancestors may have been game tested not necessaryly the dog itself but it still has the "classic game look"?
that is my understanding of it? is this correct?

[JacksHH]

IMHO very few dogs exist today that are truly "game bred", that being off proven game parents. Many advertise their litters as game bred to promote and boost sales. When in fact you would have to go back many generations to actually find a game dog in the pedigree. I would not get too wrapped around the term game bred, many will never truly understand the meaning "game bred" and many more will use the term only in an effort to promote and boost puppy sales. I was once told that it only takes one generation of breeding untested dogs and you're breeding staffs, not bulldogs, and I agree.

[Misiotoagodia]

and buddys mom so say some people on these and other forums saying their dogs not anyone in particular are game bred may just mean that one or some of its ancestors may have been game tested not necessaryly the dog itself but it still has the "classic game look"?
that is my understanding of it? is this correct?

Possibly, depends on the person. Like I say I have heard different people give very different definitions of "game bred."

TECHNICALLY I think it is supposed to mean that one (or more?) of the parents or at least grandparents and/or great grandparents has been tested, but I do think a lot of people use the term much more loosely than that.

PRESONALLY I would prefer a switch of attention from the traditional definition to the other "type" based definition along with a more accurate terminology such as "game type" or even "traditional type" APBT.

This has been a point of contention and (respectful) debate elsewhere on this forum between me and several other who honestly believe the only way to preserve the APBT as it is supposed to be is via some kind of game testing (most would prefer it to be limited and with strict rules and with gambling removed, but that is getting pretty deep) ...

My stance is, that the APBT can (and must) be preserved by very careful yet LEGAL breeding methods that focus on all the traditional traits (temperament being paramount, but also physical traits) combined with athletic (if not "true game") testing in legal sports such as weight pulling or even OB or agility, etc.

This view has been almost completely "pooh-poohed" by others though. One common argument being, without true game testing they would rather see the APBT breed die out entirely, otherwise it will become just a shadow of what it was meant to be.

Another "handicap" I have encountered in trying to make this case is (1.) not being an APBT owner myself, just an admirer of them and (2.) I am accused of being a "fur-mommy" or other such nonsense.

Anyway. Probably more than you ever wanted to know

But I think a lot of these older debates have been moved from "Dog debates" (which is public) to "Controversial and heated" debates (which is members only but all you have to do is request to go there).

But if you want to keep discussing it here that is great with me, (at least if/until it gets shut down or moved).

---------- Post added at 11:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------

IMHO very few dogs exist today that are truly "game bred", that being off proven game parents. Many advertise their litters as game bred to promote and boost sales. When in fact you would have to go back many generations to actually find a game dog in the pedigree. I would not get too wrapped around the term game bred, many will never truly understand the meaning "game bred" and many more will use the term only in an effort to promote and boost puppy sales. I was once told that it only takes one generation of breeding untested dogs and you're breeding staffs, not bulldogs, and I agree.

I agree with this to a point, but weren't Am Staffs specifically bred in an (obviously failed) attempt to get away from the DA?

---------- Post added at 11:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 PM ----------

IMHO very few dogs exist today that are truly "game bred", that being off proven game parents. Many advertise their litters as game bred to promote and boost sales. When in fact you would have to go back many generations to actually find a game dog in the pedigree. I would not get too wrapped around the term game bred, many will never truly understand the meaning "game bred" and many more will use the term only in an effort to promote and boost puppy sales. I was once told that it only takes one generation of breeding untested dogs and you're breeding staffs, not bulldogs, and I agree. Actually let me clarify, that part I agree with is what I bolded. The last sentence, I do not agree with at all.

[Thifiadardivy]

People still fight dogs today, you can see in some pedigree databases dogs are titles with wins. They word things in code when describing, but some are blunt about it. It is all underground, but there are still organized groups participating, pairing and titling dogs. I cant believe none of these groups dont do anything about it, i have seen guys with their name, kennel name and dogs record blatantly stated on pedigree site. Unfortunately it will probably never end.

Well if you advertise this above statement is good enough reason not advertise publicly. Close the circles folks and cull accordingly this breed is not meant for every one!

[Misiotoagodia]

Well if you advertise this above statement is good enough reason not advertise publicly. Close the circles folks and cull accordingly this breed is not meant for every one!

Here is where we have common ground but I extend it beyond the APBT / "game" issue:

If ANY breeder of ANY dog breed has to advertise their puppies publicly in order to sell them, they are not worth their salt and should not be doing it.

[Thifiadardivy]

Here is where we have common ground but I extend it beyond the APBT / "game" issue:

If ANY breeder of ANY dog breed has to advertise their puppies publicly in order to sell them, they are not worth their salt and should not be doing it.

We can agree on that. I think that has been the down fall of the breed since the internet boom.

[lapInsalm]

I agree with too many loose lips on the internet as well. If you know what YOU got, then keep it your business. Do not tell every Tom Dick and Harry what you breed or do with the dogs. Certainly don't make a website either.

[JaK_MarkoV_Pi]

personally i hate the term " game bred " it simply has no meaning anymore especially since the gangster idiots got their hands on the breed....
what one man classes as " game " another man will class as a cur.....it seems to me these days if a dog will attack another dog they call it " game " .....

even a dog from well known fighting lines is not necessarily " game bred " unless they have been tested through the generations...which 90% of dogs you buy are not !....also a pup you get from 2 deeply game parents is not necessarily game bred if the 3rd 4th and 5th generations were curs !

the only person who knows if he has gamebred dogs is the man who has bred several generations himself,keeps and culls as necessary....and only has himself to please.......and this type of person you will rarely be able to buy a dog from anyway................so " gamebred " is a pretty pointless term in my opinion.

[herrdwq]

Well if you advertise this above statement is good enough reason not advertise publicly. Close the circles folks and cull accordingly this breed is not meant for every one!

How bout that ^^^^ Enough said.

Vic

[Matajic]

...also a pup you get from 2 deeply game parents is not necessarily game bred if the 3rd 4th and 5th generations were curs !

I will respectfully have to disagree on this,.....by your standards.... then is there even a such thing as a gamebred dog? The winners/gamelosers that have been produced over the years by curs would be my basis for this argument..
I do own a more traditional type dog generally, not GAME, but not far removed from game dogs, so i tend to call them "gamebreds"

[saerensenatljn]

ok obviously curs are no good for the pit, matching & what not. i was told that cur bitches can be producers of game dogs tho, actually i think i read that in an article in gazzette. is this true woody? also because theylle quit in the pit, does this mean theyre not so great at atletic sports such as weight pull or the dock jumping?

[Matajic]

Plenty of cold bitches produced winners man...thats a fact. And yes, they all will quit...too many old time fellas have stated that repeatedly for it not to be true. Besides, what do we know, its 2009?

[saerensenatljn]

what about when it comes to the athletics like weight pull, will a cur, cur out in those sports deciding it doesnt want to pull or jump anymore?

[Matajic]

what about when it comes to the athletics like weight pull, will a cur, cur out in those sports deciding it doesnt want to pull or jump anymore?

Wow is this a can of worms man curring out and weightpulling arent IMO to be used in the same sentence...just like gameness and weightpulling. I get what your saying tho, and im not really an authority on the weight pull scene or dock jumping, but i have watched alotta weightpull events, and the dogs do enjoy it. They dont really seem to quit, if the weight is simply too much, the cart handler(term?) helps the dog finish.

[saerensenatljn]

well i know it doesnt require the wear and tear of a match, and shouldnt be compared to weight pull. but that stuff gets tiring. basically all i was askin is if you get a pup that comes out cold, will it still be as competetive as its littermate brother thats on fire? in weightpull or any other sports OTHER THAN the pit.

[Matajic]

I dont know, it is an interesting question considering the difference in the two sports

[herrdwq]

well i know it doesnt require the wear and tear of a match, and shouldnt be compared to weight pull. but that stuff gets tiring. basically all i was askin is if you get a pup that comes out cold, will it still be as competetive as its littermate brother thats on fire? in weightpull or any other sports OTHER THAN the pit.

I dont see why not...... You can be a competitive althlete and be a quitter..... These dogs are no different.


Vic