[Gymnfacymoota]

Game is not a term I would ever associate with events such as weightpull. Use determined or something else. Game is a term which can only be relegated to fighting history. The essence of gameness is so much more than just continuing to pull a wagon. I know of JRT's which would try all day to get at a rabbit so they must be deeply game?????
I really think a more accurate term would be "from game lines". This would indicate that some of the ancesters may have been tested. Again, how far back would count? Who really cares unless they feel inadequate? Game bred is a term which seems like it should be synonymous with game or game tested.

[Wsjltrhe]

I will respectfully have to disagree on this,.....by your standards.... then is there even a such thing as a gamebred dog? The winners/gamelosers that have been produced over the years by curs would be my basis for this argument..
I do own a more traditional type dog generally, not GAME, but not far removed from game dogs, so i tend to call them "gamebreds"

I highlighted and agree with what you wrote.

I could be wrong but I think it was M. Carver who didn't believe in testing his female dogs. Now if this makes his dogs not being "gamebred," I'd have to disagree.

[JaK_MarkoV_Pi]

I will respectfully have to disagree on this,.....by your standards.... then is there even a such thing as a gamebred dog? The winners/gamelosers that have been produced over the years by curs would be my basis for this argument..
I do own a more traditional type dog generally, not GAME, but not far removed from game dogs, so i tend to call them "gamebreds"

thats fine i respect your view...but we all make judgments based on our own standards......if i knew a young pup was bred from 2 game parents....but i also knew that either or both gr parents had quit i could not kid myself into thinking i had a gamebred dog......its all about being honest with yourself...sure we can all go around saying we have gamebred this or that but who are we trying to impress ?.....myself i only have myself to impress so who am i kidding by saying my young pup is gamebred when i know his gr parents quit !!....
yes all these dogs have skeletons in the closet quitters and untrue pedigrees ....but that shouldnt mean we just go along with it and pretend it never happened....i believe you need to keep things realistic....if of 4 gr parents you knew 1 quit but the other 3 were game then you have a pretty much gamebred dog....if 2 of the gr parents were never tested but 2 were game you dont have a gamebred dog....etc etc etc.....its all about levels of honesty and when you dont sell dogs you only have yourself to please...so you dont need to lie and your standards are kept high for that reason.....

---------- Post added at 06:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 AM ----------

I highlighted and agree with what you wrote.

I could be wrong but I think it was M. Carver who didn't believe in testing his female dogs. Now if this makes his dogs not being "gamebred," I'd have to disagree.

so you believe that reading a 4 generation pure carver pedigree ( for arguments sake ) where at least 50 % of those dogs are untested ( thats without any possible curs )........means you have a gamebred pup ??

if it was jim from down the street would that theory still apply ? a mans name and reputation doesnt blindly go before common sense in my book.

---------- Post added at 07:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 AM ----------

Plenty of cold bitches produced winners man...thats a fact. And yes, they all will quit...too many old time fellas have stated that repeatedly for it not to be true. Besides, what do we know, its 2009?

thats true enough...but i still maintain,it is wrong to knowingly breed from a cur.........and any old timer who bred from a dog he knew quit or new to be cold was wrong for doing so regardless of what it produced......

there was a lot of things them old boys did that was wrong it doesnt make it right or ok just because it produced something good.....breeding should always be about stacking the odds in your favour....breeding from curs or cold dogs is not stacking the odds in your favour even if you strike lucky and produce something good.

---------- Post added at 07:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 AM ----------

what about when it comes to the athletics like weight pull, will a cur, cur out in those sports deciding it doesnt want to pull or jump anymore?

im a believer in gameness having nothing whatsoever to do with weightpull or similar events......you cannot compare the direct physical punishment and dehydration issues a dog comes up against in the square......with determination to move a weight....its just an unrealistic comparisson.....
ive heard about extremely game dogs that point blank refused to pull a weight they could easily pull...some game dogs are just plain lazy and thats why you cant compare gameness in the pit to gameness outside of it.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Assuming there is no correlation between "game" in the pit and the dog's abilities to perform outside of the pit, unless you are planning to fight the dog, who cares about game?

To me it's like bragging about how you dog comes from a line of great racers yet all you and your dog do is lay around the house.

I guess I don't see the benefit of calling a dog game or game breed. The whole thing seems like an ego trip to me.

[Wsjltrhe]

so you believe that reading a 4 generation pure carver pedigree ( for arguments sake ) where at least 50 % of those dogs are untested ( thats without any possible curs )........means you have a gamebred pup ??

if it was jim from down the street would that theory still apply ? a mans name and reputation doesnt blindly go before common sense in my book.

Like Woody said, if that's not a gamebred pup according to your standards then so be it.

I still think M. Carver put gamebred pups on the ground, whether he tested his brood matrons or not and produced more game dogs than most of us have. Not to mention how successful he had become in the dog game. But I guess he had no common sense...

"Jim" from down the street wouldn't even come close.

[CVEGK7mV]

Just my take on it of course, but I own "gamebred" APBTs. I say this only because I know for a fact that all my dogs ancesters were the products of APBT dogs that have not been watered down by Ambullies, Staffs, Blues, etc. I don't consider whether or not, his parents or grandparents were game or dead game or deep game. Again, just my opinion and take on it, not the gospel.

I have been in these dogs for a long, long time and "game", as in my dog is "game", is only meant to be box lingo as is the term "cold".

I don't consider a weightpull dog "game", I consider them an athletic dog with great drive and stamina.
Maurice Carver did not gametest his females because he said they woke up in a different mood everyday. I own Carver dogs from the McCool bloodlines. I have one boy that has a Tants outcross in the 4th gen and he is a gem. I also have owned the Beaudreaux bloodline and love them as well.

I know people that knew Carver and I think he was a wonderful breeder that put alot of winners and foundation stock on the ground. That can be said for many other men as well. Whether or not I agree with the fact that M. Carver was a dogfighter is irrelevant.

Having said all of that, I say I have "gamebred" dogs most of all to distinguish that I own the "old style" APBT and face it, most lay people out there have no idea what "Old Style" means, but they do know what Gamebred means.

[Raj_Copi_Jin]

Having said all of that, I say I have "gamebred" dogs most of all to distinguish that I own the "old style" APBT and face it, most lay people out there have no idea what "Old Style" means, but they do know what Gamebred means.

I was under the impression that "game" had nothing to do with the way a dog looked, rather it was how the dog acted.

[JaK_MarkoV_Pi]

Assuming there is no correlation between "game" in the pit and the dog's abilities to perform outside of the pit, unless you are planning to fight the dog, who cares about game?

To me it's like bragging about how you dog comes from a line of great racers yet all you and your dog do is lay around the house.

I guess I don't see the benefit of calling a dog game or game breed. The whole thing seems like an ego trip to me.

i agree entirely.......90 % of todays " gamebred " dogs as there owners like to call them will never have a tooth in them.......your absolutely right its all ego,s.....its like owning a ferrari and keeping it in the garage to look at and brag to your pals......a ferrari is a slow car if it doesnt move so who really cares !
a lot of folk today like to read pedigrees and try to compare their young pup to its ancestors....if they have a jeep dog that has a similar looking mouth or the ear carriage looks the same they say the dogs " just like ch jeep i better breed it to another pure jeep dog "....then if it growls or grabs hold of the neighbors poodle......ITS DEFINATELY A JEEP DOG AND GAMEBRED !!!!

---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

Like Woody said, if that's not a gamebred pup according to your standards then so be it.

I still think M. Carver put gamebred pups on the ground, whether he tested his brood matrons or not and produced more game dogs than most of us have. Not to mention how successful he had become in the dog game. But I guess he had no common sense...

"Jim" from down the street wouldn't even come close.

so if less than 50 % of a dogs close up heritage is untested...thats a gamebred dog in your book is it ?...some folk just dont set their standards high enough if thats the case.
yes carver put game dogs and match winners out into the game so what....it still doesnt make his breeding principals correct in what we today know to be " breeding gamedogs "......if you want to take carvers word to the bank because he had a good record in dogs then so be it.....

ronald mcdonald has a good name in cheeseburgers but he probably couldnt cook one !.....some folk hang on every word they are told by their elders and betters without even questioning it..........i used to sit for many hours talking breeding with one of the best breeders i ever knew in the game but as much as i learned there was some stuff i plain didnt agree with....breeding is about opinions,if one man was right we would all just copy him !

---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 PM ----------

Having said all of that, I say I have "gamebred" dogs most of all to distinguish that I own the "old style" APBT and face it, most lay people out there have no idea what "Old Style" means, but they do know what Gamebred means.

i believe the terminology is wrong.........to say a pup is bred off game stock cheapens the word game unless that pup has game parents and gr parents......if not it becomes an innacurate description....

the word " game " just gets thrown around these days with no real meaning and tragically the word has lost a lot of meaning.....anybody who has ever witnessed the kind of tearjerking gameness that some of these dogs have shown will have a higher value of the word than somebody who has not witnessed it.....

so to just use the term with no real meaning is an insult to the many genuine game dogs of today and yesterday.....

a pup from fighting stock......is a far more accurate desrciption.....but i guess a pup from game stock is a description that sells far more pups

[neotheMit]

Assuming there is no correlation between "game" in the pit and the dog's abilities to perform outside of the pit, unless you are planning to fight the dog, who cares about game?

To me it's like bragging about how you dog comes from a line of great racers yet all you and your dog does is lay around the house.

I guess I don't see the benefit of calling a dog game or game breed. The whole thing seems like an ego trip to me.

Thank You! People here get SO caught up in wether their dog is "gamebred" or if they are "old style" or traditional. Nobody here (i hope) is planning to use these dogs as fighters. So what difference does it make other than to say you own a gamebred dog?

Its pretty ridiculous from the outside looking in.

[Wsjltrhe]

so if less than 50 % of a dogs close up heritage is untested...thats a gamebred dog in your book is it ?...some folk just dont set their standards high enough if thats the case.
yes carver put game dogs and match winners out into the game so what....it still doesnt make his breeding principals correct in what we today know to be " breeding gamedogs "......if you want to take carvers word to the bank because he had a good record in dogs then so be it.....

ronald mcdonald has a good name in cheeseburgers but he probably couldnt cook one !.....some folk hang on every word they are told by their elders and betters without even questioning it..........i used to sit for many hours talking breeding with one of the best breeders i ever knew in the game but as much as i learned there was some stuff i plain didnt agree with....breeding is about opinions,if one man was right we would all just copy him !

You are throwing percentages in and not once in any of my posts I had mentioned numbers.

I didn't say that Carver's breeding practices were correct but I'm not going to sit here and question it ethier. He is more successful in the game than you, me, and 99% of all gamedog owners.

My question to you is if you don't considered the pup "gamebred" but as it matures,its tested hard, and turns out to be a deep game dog, what do you call it then? A game dog that wasn't "gamebred"? See what I'm trying to get at?

One man's cur is another man's game winner.

Carver wasn't the only one who bred untested females...

You summed it best, "breeding is about opinions."

[JaK_MarkoV_Pi]

You are throwing percentages in and not once in any of my posts I had mentioned numbers.

I didn't say that Carver's breeding practices were correct but I'm not going to sit here and question it ethier. He is more successful in the game than you, me, and 99% of all gamedog owners.

My question to you is if you don't considered the pup "gamebred" but as it matures,its tested hard, and turns out to be a deep game dog, what do you call it then? A game dog that wasn't "gamebred"? See what I'm trying to get at?

One man's cur is another man's game winner.

Carver wasn't the only one who bred untested females...

You summed it best, "breeding is about opinions."

you didnt mention numbers you said untested FEMALES ( your words not mine )....if im not wrong a pup has 2 parents a male and a female so if a pup has a pedigree and all the females were untested the pup is from 50 % untested dogs.......no ?

hey im not disputing carver or any other of them ol timers were great dogmen....BUT they were great dogmen in their day.....if mo carver rose from the dead tomorrow and matched into the fast lane competitors of today with the knowledge he had back then he wouldnt stand a chance !!....likewise....old bullyson,jeep or many of them old dogs wouldnt live with the fast lane dogs of today.....but that doesnt make them any less of great dogs,they were....but they were great dogs IN THEIR DAY.....

carl lewis was an all time great sprinter and in the 80,s nobody ever thought his records would be beaten.......last week he wouldnt have even got a bronze medal !!!....usein bolts 100/200 meter times would not have been thought possible 20 years ago.......you see where im going ?
muhammed ali probably ate red meat for breakfast dinner and tea........today that would be laughed at.......that dont mean ali wasnt the greatest fighter of all time....it was just a different generation and all things in sport evolves with the times........
sport evolves through the generations.....how many game dogs went over 3 hours 30/40 years ago ? not many...today its not uncommon at all.....and thats down to the fact that dogmen have a far better understanding today than they did in carvers era........fitness,nutrition,supplements,shots etc etc...has all come so far in what we know and understand today that those old timers ideas although great in their day would not stand up in todays times....and the same go,s for breeding.......our understanding of breeding and genetics today is far superior to what it was then....again,that doesnt make them old boys any less of dogmen............but as the saying go,s " Time stands still for no man ".......and if they were here im sure they would accept and understand that.

as for your question... no a dog that was not born from game stock can NEVER be a gamebred dog,he may be the gamest dog alive but he will never be a gameBRED dog...how can he be if his parents quit ?

anyway.....good to hear your thoughts and best of luck

[Wsjltrhe]

I said that Carver didn't believe in testing his females. So basically you are saying that Carver didn't breed gamebred pups because of the females in their pedigree were not tested? I guess he didn't produce much gamebred pups then.

I don't know how the discussion went from breeding to matching dogs. I'm not going to dispute whether he would stand a chance against fast lane dogs of today or not. That's a matter of one's opinion. But how many of these fast lane competitors are successful as Carver? How many of these big name kennels produced quality stock years after years?

My question was about a deep game sire and an untested female. Not the parents of a pup that were curs.

I'm sure you heard the saying, "all dogs with quit, under the right circumstances." If this is the case, then there are absolutely no gamebred pups...ever.

[gerturiotf]

Yes dog fights and having championships still go theres a couple that goes down over and like the others said it is very rare to catch a true game bred pit we all have some they call the dogs Game bred because thats what they were up against fighting that word gamebred got tossed around loosely back then so they was like why not call them Game bred pits for the last part yes a lot of Fights still happen to this day theres a whole lot over here and they fights can be very internation ranging in from the Carribean to South America all the way to Japan normally fights raise pup for a high percentage of money but since people are cracking down on them things started changing to me JMO it is very rare indeed to find a stright up game bred dog like you must instaly do research and somewhat for the pedigree heres a lil hint for you check out the Online Pedigrees like int he Pedigreedatabase and stuff and you still see they are fighting just a lil hint for ya

[aLZ9zKsO]

[JaK_MarkoV_Pi]

I said that Carver didn't believe in testing his females. So basically you are saying that Carver didn't breed gamebred pups because of the females in their pedigree were not tested? I guess he didn't produce much gamebred pups then.

I don't know how the discussion went from breeding to matching dogs. I'm not going to dispute whether he would stand a chance against fast lane dogs of today or not. That's a matter of one's opinion. But how many of these fast lane competitors are successful as Carver? How many of these big name kennels produced quality stock years after years?

My question was about a deep game sire and an untested female. Not the parents of a pup that were curs.

I'm sure you heard the saying, "all dogs with quit, under the right circumstances." If this is the case, then there are absolutely no gamebred pups...ever.

2 things......
1 ,i think you and i have a different meaning to the term " game bred "....to me,if one of a pups parents quit or is untested then no the pup is not game bred...how can it be....the term gamebred means a pup bred from gameness....how can it be if one or both parents were untested/quit ??.......that the problem today people throw the word " game " around without any real meaning and it simply cheapens the word to the point where somebody like you is willing to describe a pup born from an untested dam as a " gamebred " pup

2,the subject went from breeding to matching because i was making an example of how sport/dogs has evolved through the generations.......just as nutritional understanding and ideas is far superior to back then......so is breeding understanding and ideas......but you seem to refuse to believe that in THIS day not back then carvers breeding principals of breeding from untested females is the equivalent of muhammed ali only eating red meat !!!....times move on and today we have far better knowledge and understanding of what works compared to back then.....if you refuse to accept that then im afraid your living in the past !

yes its some peoples opinions that all dogs will quit....so what ? so does that mean there are no game dogs ? a dog is game until he quits,if he doesnt quit he,s a game dog........then again i guess at the end of a deeply game dogs career you could get him hog fat and put 5 hard mouthed destroyers on him in the same aftenoon just to prove he would quit ....but its not very realistic though is it....
whether you like it or not times change and none of todays top gamedog breeders would breed from untested parentage for the pit.....if thats what carver did for whatever reason he felt it necessary ( which maybe you could tell me because i simply cannot see the logic to it ) then thats his view....but over time it has proved not to be the view of most who have been as succesful in their era as carver was in his.......its also worth remembering carver was succesful at a time when the game was very small and cannot be compared to how big the game is internationally in this generation.

---------- Post added at 04:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:59 AM ----------

just to add.....if carver never bred from tested females then no he never bred a gamebred pup.....that doesnt mean he never bred game DOGS though...it just means he didnt breed dogs bred from gameness....

again...i think we are just getting our terminology confused.....breeding a game dog is a different thing to breeding a game bred dog.
a game dog can be bred from 2 parents who quit cold......
those same 2 parents could obviously never produce a game bred dog.

[Wsjltrhe]

Lol I feel like we are just going in circles here.

We are not getting the terminology confused here. My opinion on Carver's breeding program is that he put gamebred pups on the ground. I don't care if his females were tested or not. He produced alot of good dogs.

Some breeders would breed a female because of the blood that's running through her body or the fact that her siblings have proven to be game. And if you think that none of today's top breeders don't breed to untested females...well that's your opinion. Cause I won't be surprised if some of them have.

No one has the science of breeding gamedogs down...period! If they did, then they would have produced all game litters on after another. Whether its today understanding of science or nutrition or genetics.

I'm not cheaping the word "game" because I feel that Carver produced gamebred pups. If that's how you see it, so be it.

No one is willing to lose a good bitch because some won't test a female like they do with their stud dogs.

I've said it before, one man's cur is another man's game winner...

[JaK_MarkoV_Pi]

Lol I feel like we are just going in circles here.

We are not getting the terminology confused here. My opinion on Carver's breeding program is that he put gamebred pups on the ground. I don't care if his females were tested or not. He produced alot of good dogs.

Some breeders would breed a female because of the blood that's running through her body or the fact that her siblings have proven to be game. And if you think that none of today's top breeders don't breed to untested females...well that's your opinion. Cause I won't be surprised if some of them have.

No one has the science of breeding gamedogs down...period! If they did, then they would have produced all game litters on after another. Whether its today understanding of science or nutrition or genetics.

I'm not cheaping the word "game" because I feel that Carver produced gamebred pups. If that's how you see it, so be it.

No one is willing to lose a good bitch because some won't test a female like they do with their stud dogs.

I've said it before, one man's cur is another man's game winner...

you are wrong....if a pup is born from an untested female he is not a gamebred pup...how can he be if his dam never proved gameness ????....this is what i mean by some people just believe anything they are told without questioning the reality of it......if muhammed ali told me to eat read meat to be a great boxer im sorry i just couldnt go along with it in todays times just because its muhammed ali !!....times change....

now the one BIG thing i think you are neglecting here which is an age old saying and having bred these dogs over the last 25 years i have found it to be possibly THE most valuable piece of advice i was ever told...........

" THE DOG MAKES THE PEDIGREE....NOT THE PEDIGREE MAKES THE DOG "

consistently breeding from untested dogs is naive and plain wrong i dont care if the queen of england the president of america or maurice carver told me otherwise this is 2009 and breeding principals have come a long way as has our knowledge......we have to stack the odds in our favour in every and any way possible....

[Wsjltrhe]

Of course the dog makes the pedigree and not the other way around. Who hasn't heard of this before? And how many times have you heard the saying, "find a well bred bitch and stick her to a proven stud."

You are still stuck on Ali eating red meat. That's his belief and that deals more with conditioning and not about breeding so that comparison is irrelevant. You are comparing apples to oranges here.

The reality of breeding gamedogs is a gamble. We all know that. Some curs/cold dogs produce and some deep game dogs don't. Which is why no one has it down. I'm calling it how I see it.

I don't breed to untested stock. I was always told breed best to best. But sometimes I have to question that advice when I think of Carver's breeding practice.

I can care less if you think I'm wrong. My opinion about Carver's breeding practice is just that. You can arugue that the game was smaller back then than it is now but for a guy who was breeding to untested females, he sure was successful.

I'm done with this thread because we are just going in circles.

[JaK_MarkoV_Pi]

Of course the dog makes the pedigree and not the other way around. Who hasn't heard of this before? And how many times have you heard the saying, "find a well bred bitch and stick her to a proven stud."

You are still stuck on Ali eating red meat. That's his belief and that deals more with conditioning and not about breeding so that comparison is irrelevant. You are comparing apples to oranges here.

The reality of breeding gamedogs is a gamble. We all know that. Some curs/cold dogs produce and some deep game dogs don't. Which is why no one has it down. I'm calling it how I see it.

I don't breed to untested stock. I was always told breed best to best. But sometimes I have to question that advice when I think of Carver's breeding practice.

I can care less if you think I'm wrong. My opinion about Carver's breeding practice is just that. You can arugue that the game was smaller back then than it is now but for a guy who was breeding to untested females, he sure was successful.

I'm done with this thread because we are just going in circles.

You have answered your own point then.....YOU YOURSELF dont breed from untested stock as you feel the dog makes the ped not the ped makes the dog......but maurice carver bred from untested females so it was ok because he had some good dogs ..............right is right and wrong is wrong lets not sugar coat it just because the man was a good dogman in his day !.....if he was alive today he wouldnt do it thats for sure.

had you said in your original posts that you yourself dont believe in breeding untested stock then we wouldnt have debated it as we are both in agreement !!!
I brought ali into it as an example of how times have changed.......but i didnt need to make the example as you have just said yourself you too dont agree with breeding untested stock...what a waste of time that was