[Angry White American]

Hey everyone. I need some help with a couple of questions I have. I own a 5 year old Pittie named Chloe. She is chocolate brown with a white chest, 2 white front paws and some white on her nose. Her mom JJ is an Am Staff, and her father (from what I was told) is a California Red Nose. I have never seen him, so I don't know.

I met this woman yesterday that has 4 Pitbulls and she said that Chloe had some Blue Nose in her because of her coloring. For the first year of her life, Chloe was black, but then during the summer she turned chocolate brown and stayed that way. I know that the rest of the litter were very different colors. There was one Red Nose, a white one with black spots, a white one with a brown spot on it's head, 3 that were beige with black masks around their eyes, and 2 (including mine) that were black. So where a blue nose comes in doesn't make sense to me.

If anyone can tell me anything about coloring on them or if infact Chloe does have some blue nose in her, I would truly appreciate it! thanks!!

[Ebjjrxrd]

From what i understand and correct me if i am wrong. Blue nose and Red nose are just simply just that. its not a bloodline. if she a red nose then her nose should be red and vica versa.

[markbila]

If they have a red nose, blue nose, blue coat, red coat, brindle coat, cream coat, fawn with white patches or a black mask, it doesn't matter at all. Same breed they just have different characteristics.

I have blue eyes and my kids have brown we are all still human

[errolurberozy]

sounds like a scatterbred mess...

nose color really doesn't matter...no matter how hard people try to make it a bloodline it's just not. Just consider that lady to have been talking out of her ass and disregard...

I have no clue what a California Red Nose is...it "might" be an Amstaff term, but it is made up as far as American Pit Bull Terriers go. Now mind you, a red nose is looked down upon by Amstaff folk so...I venture that it is just another made up name like a "King Pit", or a "gatamouf".

Do you have a pedigree on your dog, or some pics that you could post? I am interested to see her and I think that you may be describing more of a "seal" coloration as opposed to black at birth. Hard to tell without pics though...

Also if you have pics of the dam please post those as well...

If someone can look at your dog and assume that they know what color his ancestors noses are I would assume they are blowing hot air (even if they have 4 "pitsbulls" lol). Now those genetics can be traced and tracked down, but its not going to be by looking at the dogs nose...

[VIAGRA-VIAGRA]

"Blue Nose" just means his nose is blue.... "Red Nose" just means it has a red nose..... It has nothing to do with blood line, just like brown eyes or blue eyes in humans.

[Faungarne]

Sounds like a BYB rant to me. Not the Original poster, but the person who told you that stuff.

[vSzsgifP]

The term rednose was used mainly in the older days of APBT to specify a dog with a red nose...usually these dogs would also have gold eyes. As lines were done off these dogs they sort of became their own "line". You also have "old family" rednose APBT's (which my old girl Star was). Old family had to have a red nose, gold eyes, and all mahogany nails. Only white would be possibly chest. These dogs came down from breedings done by the old "pitmen" .... Carver, Greenwood, Hemphill, etc. A good example would be GC Chinaman.

Blue color has developed along the way, and many APBT purists consider blue dogs not "true" APBT's but an outbreed offshoot with AmStaffs, and other dogs. Bluenose's do not exist to my knowledge, and may well be a presumed cool sounding term to use.


I'm attaching a pic of my new pup (12 week old "Storm")
She is a chocolate red-nose.

[errolurberozy]

The term rednose was used mainly in the older days of APBT to specify a dog with a red nose...usually these dogs would also have gold eyes. As lines were done off these dogs they sort of became their own "line". You also have "old family" rednose APBT's (which my old girl Star was). Old family had to have a red nose, gold eyes, and all mahogany nails. Only white would be possibly chest. These dogs came down from breedings done by the old "pitmen" .... Carver, Greenwood, Hemphill, etc. A good example would be GC Chinaman.

Blue color has developed along the way, and many APBT purists consider blue dogs not "true" APBT's but an outbreed offshoot with AmStaffs, and other dogs. Bluenose's do not exist to my knowledge, and may well be a presumed cool sounding term to use.


I'm attaching a pic of my new pup (12 week old "Storm")
She is a chocolate red-nose.

I don't know who gave you this information, but there is a lot of error in there. While entertaining I'll help clear up some issues lol

1) Chinaman was not a grand champion nor was he a red dog nor did he have a red nose...if chinaman is a good example of a red nose dog then Im Ray Charles...
Here's a pic of Garner's CH (not GRCH) Chinaman now if that's a red red nosed dog Im blind...



http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com....php?dog_id=26

here's a link to his story in the history forum...
http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=3037

2) Maurice Carver is not known for breeding old family dogs. In fact, he is famous for breeding and campaigning scatterbred dogs. He simply made best to best breedings for the most part and kept bulldogs...period. If anybody didn't give a shit about color it was Carver...he dabbled in different families and strained, but certainly was not a famous old family breeder.

Here's a good vid that will show you the diversity of the dogs that Carver bred and are attributed to him...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5IlFER86uc"]YouTube - Maurice Carver[/ame] Count the red/red nosed dogs that show up...

3) That coloring that you mentioned is true for the most part, but the old family dogs are strains lumped under an umbrella. Hemphill, Wilder, Lightner, were doing different things and their dogs were lumped into a family. Different lines with similiar characteristics. Old Family Red Nose is not a bloodline.

Now the fact that you mentioned that red nose refers to the color of the dogs nose...that's spot on.

[glazgoR@]

If they have a red nose, blue nose, blue coat, red coat, brindle coat, cream coat, fawn with white patches or a black mask, it doesn't matter at all. Same breed they just have different characteristics.

I have blue eyes and my kids have brown we are all still human

thats a good way to put it. color is not the breed color is genetic

[vSzsgifP]

Wow it has been awhile. I am sorry for any misinformation. I was going by memory from reading many years ago. The basis for my info was from Richard Stratton books I had read over a decade ago. Which apparently I do not remember as well as I thought I did.

On Chinaman, I had thought he was a red rednose, however, he is listed on my old dog's pedigree (ADBA) as Grandchampion Chinaman (I mean there, in print, on the papers). I know this refers to "the" true Chinaman, as Indian Bolio, and Tudor's "DIBO" are listed also at generations 5 and 6, (she was extremely good, old blood).

As for Carver, wow, not a famous old breeder?? He owned and bred Tudor's Dibo. Considered by many to be the best APBT of all time.

I have to insert some info about Carver..

“Mr. Ronnie” was imported from Chicago, USA, by Villa Liberty kennel in 1997. Of the APBT in the present time that are alive and with enough difference to the others, "Mr. Ronnie" have the greater existing percentage, with a 52´58%, of the genetic or blood of TUDOR'S “DIBO"Pedigree -, the best reproducer of all old and modern times, which died in 1958.
The three more important breeders of the race of all the times, had in common to Tudor´s "Dibo" but in different concepts:

- Howard Heinzl was the breeder of Tudor´s "Dibo", but of accidental way. (To see the articulate in the Web Site of Villa Liberty " WHAT NOBODY TO WRITING STILL ABOUT THE BEST APBT OF ALL TIMES, TUDOR´S “DIBO”.")

Earl Tudor was the owner of "Dibo" when Howard Heinzl to give Earl like gift and Earl Registry him with his last name, Tudor´s.

Maurice Carver (Known like THE SILVER FOX) was the breeder that better knew to take advantage of and to conserve through his breeding, the valuable genetic or blood of Tudor´s "Dibo",in special, through the IRONHEAD Pedigreeand BULLYSON Pedigreecrossings. . The Legacy of the dogs of Maurice, continuous nowadays intact through of the genetics of “Mr. Ronnie”.

TUDOR'S "DIBO",Pedigree was the spine and the pattern to follow in the breeding of Maurice Carver with the APBT, the same that other good breeders like; Howard Heinzl, Earl Tudor, John Fonseca, Leo Kinard, Ralf Greenwood, George Saddler, Roonie Hyde, Don Maloney, James Crenshaw, Mc. Cool, Enrique Morfín, Jim Twardowski (R-Gang´s),D. Stubbs, Ruben Valenzuela, Gary Hammonds, Bert Sorrel, Floyd Boudreaux, William Lacefield, Pat Patrick, Indian Sonny, Scotty Nelson, Don Mayfield, etc.

Making reference to that, "Mr Ronnie" is direct son of a female breeding by Maurice Carver, I must say to transmit of the commendable thing of this last, that excluding the descendants of "Mr. Ronnie", solely there grandgrandsons of some dog breeding by Maurice Carver are left alive at the present time. Observing sole this last data, the genetic or blood of "Mr. Ronnie" is PATRIMONY and HERITAGE for the APBT of the present time.

It is important to mention that “Mr. Ronnie” besides to have once in fifth generation to Tudor´s "Dibo", also has four times more in sixth generation, 10 more in seventh, other 19 more in eighth and thus we can find very many repetitions of Tudor´s "Dibo" in his genealogy, until arriving at his 16 generation. Given this great amount of repetitions of Tudor´s "Dibo" within the genealogy of “Mr. Ronnie”, it is the explanation of because this magnify animal is the one that greater percentage has of the genetics or blood of Tudor´s "Dibo", with a 52´58% and enough difference to the other alive APBT, with the exception of his descendants, of course.

Genetically this 52´58%, come to be equivalent as if “Mr. Ronnie” was direct son of Tudor´s "Dibo" and in addition he also had him in his fifth generation. Simply impressive, considering that Tudor´s "Dibo" died half century ago. “Mr. Ronnie”, is without a doubt some a genetic treasure, that thanks to the work and dedication of the Old Silver Fox (M. Carver), to arrived to the present time like a gift from the nature.

Indian (Carver) Bolio. Picture courtesy of Pat Patrick.
Pat Patrick considers to “Bolio” after Tudor´s "Dibo", the best APBT of all the times. "Bolio" was bred by Maurice Carver. Patrick enjoyed much with this tribute to Maurice Carver.




** Not exactly what I would call "scatterbred dogs". **

[errolurberozy]

Again...Chinaman was not a GR CH. He was a CH and 4xW. If your ped says that it is a misprint. I don't know what you mean by the "true" chiman. but who is the owner/breeder listed with him? Randall Abernathy bred him, and Tom Garner owned him.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...gree&dog_id=26 and here's his ped from his last owner Tom Garner's site http://tom-garner-kennels.com/stud-d.../chinaman.html

as for Maurice Carver...what I was responding to is the fact that you wrote that old family red nose dogs came down from breeders such as Carver, and that is not true. From your post...

You also have "old family" rednose APBT's (which my old girl Star was). Old family had to have a red nose, gold eyes, and all mahogany nails. Only white would be possibly chest. These dogs came down from breedings done by the old "pitmen" .... Carver, Greenwood, Hemphill, etc.

Now to say that about Carver is simply inaccurate. He is an oldtime dogman, but he didn't specialize in breeding old family reds as your post suggested.

As for the scatterbred portion...he bred and campaigned alot more dogs than the Bullyson and Ironhead with Dibo blood. He is famous for best to best breedings and campaigning scatterbred dogs...if you don't believe me look at this history of Plumber's Alligator http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthre...t=scatter+bred . It will plainly state that his dam was a scatter bred dog from Carver which Carver is famous for...

Alligator came about as almost an after thought. Mr. Williams of Ft. Worth had obtained the Satin Lady bitch from Maurice Carver. She was a big, black pretty bitch that I never cared much about as an individual. She was one of these scatter-bred dogs Maurice was famous for.

[Poowssnople]

Ummmm....HELLO

If you would read above before rashly posting you will see my above apoligies for the misinformation posted above. Stratton did not write that, it is a failure of my own memory of Richard's books well over a decade ago. Perhaps (on that particular issue) I should not have spoken before I went back through old information, but then perhaps YOU should not be so damn rude.

[vSzsgifP]

After doing a little research and reading I do think I found my error.

Screaming Eagle had a post "Touched by Fire" which is from one the books I recall, here is the post....

http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthre...highlight=OFRN

I had forgotten about the Lightner OFRN connection, but I had recalled some of this part.....


I can talk about the Old Family Red Nose dogs with some authority, as I knew so many of the people associated with them. But I can also do so objectively, for my present lot of dogs doesn’t have a red nose among them. Nevertheless, the blood of those dogs runs in their veins. Wallace’s Bad Red is back there. Most of my dogs are down from Grand Champion Hope, who was sired by the immortal Tombstone. Most of the dogs that I have had turn out well for me were down from Tombstone. So that means I have gotten away from the original OFRN dogs, right? Well, not exactly. You see, Tombstone was mostly OFRN breeding, top and bottom. The immortal Black Widow, for example, was three quarters OFRN, even though she herself was black in coloration. And she was Tombstone’s paternal grand dam, while his mother was very heavy red nose.

Which (in the book) had mentioned the Hemphill connection to OFRN (you will see Hemphill on my original post, and considering Black Widow was of Carver's foundation bitches, my mind had pulled Carver also. (Black Window is also on my old dogs ped. so I was familiar with the dog/breeder.



As a side note.... Carver and scatterbreds.....

In the this post (also on this board) http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?t=3215

This post begins by saying.....

In 1970 Maurice Carver was likely the most famous active dog man alive. Earl Tudor was a living legend but he was not active then. Maurice Carver was known as an all around dog man. He was considered one of the best breeders of Game dogs as well as a skillful Handler and Conditioner. Maurice was so famous that if you told a dog man he would be another Maurice Carver it was quite a compliment. If a dog man was acting like a know-it-all someone might say… “who does he think he is, Maurice Carver.”




This is quite a difference of what is posted above about Carver, and his history in regards to this breed. What I really see as interesting is that some who posted these comments in this thread, also posted in the above Carver thread, however the tone/wording was entirely different.

I am not trying to be difficult, but the fact remains I am very familiar with APBT's, have owned them nearly 20 years, and no, I may not have every detail in every book, but I am not an idiot either.

People deserve repect.