[TughEmotteTug]

Can anyone provide the actual documentation about this deal? Sounds like it wasn't even an election promise but some deal done with the shootin' party for selling state owned assets. 79 out of 799 parks with recreational hunting - that's only 10%. Which parks and why those?

What is the strategy for feral control? What monitoring will be conducted and what baselines are there to test effectiveness? What target species (goats, cats and dogs are listed, but really it is going to be primarily deer and pigs. And what about horses - which appear to be off the list)?

Is this outsourcing to the community of essential services that an agency should be doing or it it complimentary and supplementary?

How happy are the parks staff that this is a new area to monitor, manage and regulate (remember that public servants won't be able to voice any concerns unless approved to do so by agency/government)?

What about model systems like Victoria and NZ which do have recreational park hunting?

Anyone dragged up stats on deer numbers in NZ after cessation of commercial harvest?

Anyone looked at issue that target species (i.e. deer, trout) can become declared a natural resource to be managed at levels for hunting and not eradicated/reduced to levels suitable for ecosystem recovery?

What about when other management strategies (like baiting and aerial shoots) which are considered undesirable by the hunting community but are essential for feral control?


If done well, to a strategic plan, with guidance from wildlife management experts, it sounds not unreasonable. And that would involve
the agency having some input and control, and be part of a larger pest managament strategy. But the best outcomes seen in NZ have been with dedicated, professionals, who get into hard, remote areas, who are audited on their work with post-control monitoring - and strict controls to make sure animals are not moved around or a population structure left which can breed back up quickly for a profitable return hunt.

So - what's the inside info in NSW. What's the deal?

[kylsq0Ln]

The funny thing about this sort of debate is that there are legitimate points to be made in favour of shooters - is there really any danger to the public? There really aren't many shooters these days, the numbers are not likely to be significant (not an argument to appeal to the shooters party). But all politicians know it is best to appeal to the fears of the general public. There is a whole industry based around demonising ferals, even though as woolybutt has pointed out there is no practical solution in most cases. Shooting, baiting and fencing just don't work on a continent the size of Australia, though they might have short term local benefits. Nevertheless, people's baser instincts are encouraged by those whose interest are served by fanning the flames, so politicians see an opportunity to use this fear to serve their own agenda. Feral animals have caused untold damage in Australia, and now they are used to try to open a door to push back the achievements we have made in conservation.

I'm happy to go around demonising ferals for as long as I live and try convincing others just how much of a threat these things are (animal and plant).

I sort of said there's no real practical solution, but that doesn't mean we do nothing and let numbers build even higher. We can't exterminate all ferals, but we can control their numbers at a local level sufficiently that native wildlife has a chance to recover. I went to Landcare AGM a few days ago and learned that almost all of the entire budget council had set aside to fund feral pest control has already been allocated and yet the problems we have here are enormous, rabbits being probably the worst pest. Pigs, goats and foxes are also major worries. I would like to see professional shooters employed far more widely, government spend a few hundred million on paying a lot more trained rangers to carry out invasive species control.

Not very far from my place is a mountain known as Gulaga (Mt. Dromedary) which is a National Park. A little critter known as the Long-footed Potoroo lives there. So do foxes. A few years ago it was an extremely rare thing to spot a potoroo because of the threat that foxes were putting them under. They could have even gone extinct locally. Long-footed Potoroos are listed federally as being endangered in Victoria and the tiny area of NSW where they also occur. I went to a meeting held by local landholders and NPWS to hear what was being done to protect these critters and was shown proof that foxes were the major threat above all others to the survival chances of potoroos. A combined effort between various stakeholders has seen fox numbers reduced dramatically over past few years and now we have a fairly healthy population of potoroos back on the mountain. Shooting was used as part of that control, along with baiting. Only downside is that now there are fewer foxes, rabbit numbers have increased, particularly with the better weather conditions we've had over past few years.

Now the potoroo may die out and people will say bad luck, but what many fail to realise that we'll lose more than just another furry critter. Potoroos and related beasties feed on puff-balls and other fungi and spread the spores around the forest via their droppings. Many native tree species such as our Eucalypts form a symbiotic relationship and need these fungi present in the soil in order for seed to germinate and young plants to thrive. Lose potoroos and other small fungivores and lose forest as well. Not even any feral pests that do the same job.

I wouldn't dismiss Shooters and Fishers party too quickly either. You say there aren't many supporters about, but they do have two upper-house MPs (which is the problem O'Farrell now finds himself needing to deal with), so some people do vote that way*.












*not me but!

[TughEmotteTug]

Only downside is that now there are fewer foxes, rabbit numbers have increased, particularly with the better weather conditions we've had over past few years.

That's a major point - control/eradication really has to be done sensibly, strategically, with monitoring and be adaptive. Is there going to be additional support to the parks service to set up well considered programs?



It looks like the Robert Borsak is not into a muti-pronged approach to feral control but seems to be insisting that it's only going to be ground based and using recreational shooters. Aerial shoots or baiting programs are out.

http://huntandshoot.com.au/articles/...oning-animals/

PRESS RELEASE:
Shooters and Fishers Party MLC, Robert Borsak, says the National Parks and Wildlife Service should dump its helicopter gunships and indiscriminate poisoning approach to feral animal control and adopt more effective practical solutions.

Mr Borsak said that for years the Service has had a haphazard approach to feral animal control, and they cannot tell anyone from year to year just what impact they have had on eradicating the pests.

“Shooting pigs from their helicopter gunships can be as inhumane as it is ineffective, and the use of poison in baiting programs probably kills as many native animals as it does ferals.

“Having been in the Riverina at the weekend, I am aware they have just started a five month baiting program in the Werai group of reserves.

“I’m told it’s part of a wider feral pig baiting program, and they’ve advised people on neighbouring properties and Park visitors, to “keep their kids and animals under supervision” between now and the end of June.

“We believe a properly rolled out program of licensed Game Council conservation hunters , at no cost to the Government, could produce better results by way of reducing feral animal populations than is happening now.

“The formula has worked well in State forests and it’s time the Government adopted what it knows is a workable and practical solution, and that is using conservation hunters in National Parks”, Mr Borsak said.

[kylsq0Ln]

So - what's the inside info in NSW. What's the deal?

NFI. Pretty sure no great amount of thought or planning gone into this idea, just politics as usual NSW-style. Libs want to sell off power stations, Shooters Party want something in return.

No idea how the number of parks was arrived at, I guess they would need to be sufficiently large and remote?

As things stand I don't think the idea has much merit or will get off the ground, but hopefully it might put the spot-light back on feral species control and some proper studies can be undertaken.

Wild dog attacks have become a news item again in this region and further south.

http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/art...onal-news.html

[awagsFare]

the one freedom in gun licensing which I haven't taken advantage of. (I don't hold a gun license though I would if they put me on the board of directors), is that any shooter can ask a farmer to sign his release.. to get the license under the feral pest removals mentality.

This is something that should read differently. Just the same a farmer needs to have a shot firer's permit to purchase explosives.. if he wants to blow a couple of stumps.

He needs also to have a permit which shows him how to select shooters.
shooters should also have a similar explosives permit.

sheesh.. it ain't rocket science .. ballistics is tricky yes but education helps.

However.. to be accredited with the knowledge also helps those whom may fear otherwise.

Interesting example about the explosives. A friend who was a shotfirer says that you are supposed to post notices and inform the neighbours when you are about to commence blasting. However, someone just down the road regularly sets off dozens of ground shaking explosions, right on a busy road, without any such formalities. You can hear these blasts 15 km away in town. Nobody does anything though. I wouldn't like to be driving by when one of these went off.

What would you do if you were in a National Park and heard shooting? Rush over to investigate and ask to see their paperwork?

[TughEmotteTug]

http://www.shootersandfishers.org.au...uary-2011-.pdf

Policy is pretty much - get in an "actively manage" parks - i.e. grazing, increase thinning, logging and burning. Open up for more recreation - i.e. access and hunting/fishing. Manage trout and deer as a valuable economic resource. Multiple use of forest and wetlands - including national parks and reserves (sustainable resource extraction, recreation, conservation) - have a single state-based natural resources agency managing forests, including national parks.


There's more, with emphasis on "active management"


and this final statement:


"The Shooters and Fishers Party will work to ensure that all government agencies responsible for management of natural resources receive training to enable staff and managers to understand and embrace our new approach to biodiversity and environment management.

This will require government agencies, natural resource managers, community groups and society at large to change and make innovative, challenging and sometimes unfamiliar decisions.

The starting point for implementing the necessary changes to biodiversity and environment management in NSW are so fundamental that it is essential that all people recognise the importance and the profoundness of the changes that are needed."


lol - it reads as a bit of "make benefit glorious nation with re-education to embrace and understand our New Approach."

*shrugs* I just can't find any specific details on what this new approach is..


The reason why I've looked more into the politcs than ecological datasets a cases is because this seems more of a political decision - the reference list on that document isn't compelling ecological reading, and not much info really appears to be provided at first glance. But I'm not a new south welshperson...

[grosqueneen]

cases is because this seems more of a political decision - the reference list on that document isn't compelling ecological reading, and not much info really appears to be provided at first glance. But I'm not a new south welshperson...

Purely political IMO, fatty o'barrell needed support from them for something, forgotten what though...

[eocavrWM]

Purely political IMO, fatty o'barrell needed support from them for something, forgotten what though...

Privatise electricity.

[grosqueneen]

Privatise electricity.

Informed voter that I am...

[eocavrWM]

Informed voter that I am...

Being informed might not have helped with this one.

Our local state and fed members are both agrarian socialists. It is better for my blood pressure that I remain uninformed.

[Finanziamento]

Being informed might not have helped with this one.

Our local state and fed members are both agrarian socialists. It is better for my blood pressure that I remain uninformed.

they aren't agrarian socialists, they are certifiable.

[sniskelsowwef]

Can I just sneak in (between getting loads of wood inside) to say thanks to those of you who have posted such substantial info about the problems with this ... it has certainly shown me lots of reasons to query this particular effort.

[eocavrWM]

they aren't agrarian socialists, they are certifiable.

I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.

(I had my capslock on when I started typing that. It looked like the sort of missive I'd expect from Katter's office.)

[HawksBurnDown]

Interesting example about the explosives. A friend who was a shotfirer says that you are supposed to post notices and inform the neighbours when you are about to commence blasting. However, someone just down the road regularly sets off dozens of ground shaking explosions, right on a busy road, without any such formalities. You can hear these blasts 15 km away in town. Nobody does anything though. I wouldn't like to be driving by when one of these went off.

What would you do if you were in a National Park and heard shooting? Rush over to investigate and ask to see their paperwork?

We'd just been to My FiL's funeral and had gone for a drive in his favourite place.. his forest. On a road named after him. With us was my neice who was about 9 at the time. I'd walked away from the group to have my own time and thoughts. Suddenly I was aware of motorbikes.. they were circling the car and the family.. Scaring my neice. Then they shot off up past me where I was on an old dam bank where there were some empty beer bottles.
I picked one up and lobbed it at the leaders head. My aim was true, he very nearly came off his bike trying to duck the incoming projectile. Next thing, I was standing on the dam bank with a dozen noisy motorbikes encircling me, Custers last stand. They tried the tough act .. I simply said, you have no right to be here doing what you are doing. They said, "We'll call the cops and have you arrested for attempted murder".

Myself; "I've got six witnesses who will claim you accosted them and I gave this deadhead plenty of warning of my intent as to where I was intending to place a bottle suspended in mid air. He had plenty of time to take avoiding measures or signify apology. I still had half a dozen beer bottles to throw at him or the rest of you, if he didn't." They looked at each other and left in unision.. No further words required.

[Finanziamento]

I don't think the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.

(I had my capslock on when I started typing that. It looked like the sort of missive I'd expect from Katter's office.)

You may be right :-)

[HawksBurnDown]

lol - it reads as a bit of "make benefit glorious nation with re-education to embrace and understand our New Approach."

*shrugs* I just can't find any specific details on what this new approach is..

There aren't any.

The reason why I've looked more into the politcs than ecological datasets a cases is because this seems more of a political decision - the reference list on that document isn't compelling ecological reading, and not much info really appears to be provided at first glance. But I'm not a new south welshperson...

no need to be living here.
the rest is a truthful recognition of data presented.

[Finanziamento]

http://www.shootersandfishers.org.au...uary-2011-.pdf

Policy is pretty much - get in an "actively manage" parks - i.e. grazing, increase thinning, logging and burning. Open up for more recreation - i.e. access and hunting/fishing. Manage trout and deer as a valuable economic resource. Multiple use of forest and wetlands - including national parks and reserves (sustainable resource extraction, recreation, conservation) - have a single state-based natural resources agency managing forests, including national parks.


There's more, with emphasis on "active management"


and this final statement:


"The Shooters and Fishers Party will work to ensure that all government agencies responsible for management of natural resources receive training to enable staff and managers to understand and embrace our new approach to biodiversity and environment management.

This will require government agencies, natural resource managers, community groups and society at large to change and make innovative, challenging and sometimes unfamiliar decisions.

The starting point for implementing the necessary changes to biodiversity and environment management in NSW are so fundamental that it is essential that all people recognise the importance and the profoundness of the changes that are needed."


lol - it reads as a bit of "make benefit glorious nation with re-education to embrace and understand our New Approach."

*shrugs* I just can't find any specific details on what this new approach is..


The reason why I've looked more into the politcs than ecological datasets a cases is because this seems more of a political decision - the reference list on that document isn't compelling ecological reading, and not much info really appears to be provided at first glance. But I'm not a new south welshperson...

all of which means, bugger your threatened species and threatened ecological communities, humans need to use this area in a way that a certain set of humans think it should be managed and that's what we will do.

No science. No long term thinking. No looking at the past to see what the same actions have caused before.

[HawksBurnDown]

morrieYou can hear these blasts 15 km away in town. Nobody does anything though. I wouldn't like to be driving by when one of these went off. People in town may like many rural communities be deaf to any infringements that don't directly affect them. Pity unsuspecting passers by don't know that.
Though I didn't report it when bullets were flying around my farmhouse from a tractor.. being used to shoot foxes by spotlight when no other type of vehicle could possibly have driven on the roads. He missed the house or I would have.

I did ask the police if they had any report of an explosion or other notable event at 2:10 AM on a certain date.. they said no.. Well I tried to tell them that I had another report of a man who heard the same thing and leapt out of his bed to see a police car driving past.. thought you guys were on to it.

policeperson at the other end started the rigmarole of "are you suggesting that the police are conspiring against you?..."

I said no and hung up.

Though I also published the same query in the local rag and got seven replies from a line 35 km long..
exactly as if we all stood on top of the same fault line. We all felt it noticed it .. even imagined we heard it.

[TughEmotteTug]

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1...3.2003.9518346

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1....1993.10420359

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...9.00410.x/full

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.219...S%5D2.0.CO%3B2

http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/1...8D01438EAB9405

goes to show that you really must consider a lot of ecological factors, work with conservation agencies, have a core group of skilled, local, hard-working hunters (a small proportion of total hunter population are the most effective ones - I know people like this and they are exceptional people), have baseline studies and continual monitoring, still use professionals and other control options.. etc... etc..

where are the management plans for NSW - what is the strategy?

[HawksBurnDown]

goes to show that you really must consider a lot of ecological factors, work with conservation agencies, have a core group of skilled, local, hard-working hunters (a small proportion of total hunter population are the most effective ones - I know people like this and they are exceptional people), have baseline studies and continual monitoring, still use professionals and other control options.. etc... etc..

where are the management plans for NSW - what is the strategy?

yes, yes, yes. yes we are. Generally, there aren't really any other than that the persons recruited must be licensed shooters and comply with paperwork. Surely there is science behind the scenes but that is not where it should be.

My FiL always said tha the public service had the capacity to retain dead wood. Though he was a public servant himself. It was his job to assess his employees amongst other things.