[radikal]

I guess that's a decision for Americans to make. To the French, it's already legal, provided you bribe the correct people in sufficient quantities.

[Paul Bunyan]

What is torture? I don't accept torture as we normally see it, but isn't keeping in solitary confinement, sometimes blind-folded, also torture? It might be acceptable.

[Drugmachine]

e.g. Amnesty international reports, documents torture in these countries (and organizes protest actions against them). amnesty international is a politically motivated organization. they try to portray themselves as a neutral humanitarian group but it's well-known that amnesty often refuses to (rightfully) scold arab states for their poor human rights record and obvious use of torture on prisoners. there was a recent case here in canada about a syrian national who was deported because canadian and american officials believed he was involved in terrorism. he was held in detention and tortured in a syrian prison for a year without being charged with anything before he was released out of the blue by the syrian government. instead of suing syria for torturing him and bringing the country's despicable human rights record to the public, this idiot is suing the governments of canada and the US for deporting him there.

[radikal]

I think it's only torture when you get caught.

Cameroon: Franco-African Summit must take prompt action to end torture and ill-treatment


On the occasion of the Franco-African heads of States' Summit in Yaoundé (17-19 January 2001), Amnesty International calls on participating political leaders to seize the opportunity to make a joint public commitment to end torture and ill-treatment in custody.

"Strong action taken by the political leaders attending the summit is needed to send a clear message to the perpetrators that torture will not be tolerated and that those responsible will be brought to justice" Amnesty International said today.

The torture of detainees by government agents persists with impunity in the majority of countries represented at the summit. The following cases from France , Burundi, Kenya, Cameroon, and Guinea illustrate that these human rights violations are occurring in France as well as in the African countries.

France: On 28 July 1999 in France was found by the European Court of Human Rights to have violated international standards prohibiting torture as well as those guaranteeing fair trial within a reasonable time. Ahmed Selmouni, a national both of Morocco and the Netherlands was arrested by police in November 1991 and subject to ''repeated and sustained assaults over a number of days in questioning'' including being beaten with a baseball bat and truncheons, being urinated on, and threatened with a syringe and a blow-torch. More than seven years passed between the acts of violence against Ahmed Selmouni and the first trial in February 1999 of the police officers responsible. In spite of convictions all five officers remained in or resumed service, pending appeal before the Court of Cassation. The prosecutor in this case had reportedly called for an amnesty should the officers be convicted.

Burundi: On 13 February 2000 Diomède Buyoya was killed in the cells of the Brigade spéciale de recherche (BSR), the Gendarmerie Special Investigation Unit, in Burundi's capital Bujumbura. Buyoya reportedly insulted the wife of a BSR officer working in his household. This officer beat him to death. After initially being arrested, all charges were, however, dropped against him, and the officer returned to work a month later.

Kenya: Six prisoners, Peter Loyara Lomukunyi, Peter Kolini, John Nyoro Njuguna, Julius Mungania, Peter Ngurushanaon, and James Irungu Ndugo, all on death row in King'ong'o prison, Nyeri Central Province, died during an attempt to escape in September 2000. Prison officers alleged they had died as a result of falling from an eight metre high perimeter fence. However, medical evidence obtained suggests that they were beaten to death. An inquest is currently being undertaken. To date no prison officers have been suspended from duty pending investigations.

Cameroon: In his report dated 11 November 1999 the United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture, Sir Nigel Rodley, described the practice of torture in Cameroon as ''widespread and systematic''. After undergoing beatings before and during his arrest Guy Simon Ngakam, a student's leader, was released at the end of January 2000 in a precarious state of health. Cases of torture and ill-treatment in police and gendarmerie cells throughout the country continue to be reported.

Guinea: In December 1998 a woman was arrested while taking part in a demonstration calling for the release of Alpha Condé, President of the political opposition Rassemblement du peuple de Guinée (RPG), Guinean People's Rally. With many others she was beaten, flogged and raped, ''until I lost all sense of where I was'', she said. She was later released without charge. No steps have been taken to investigate the allegations of torture, including rape, and no one has been brought to justice for these crimes. In one court case, a 17-year old woman defendant made allegations of rape in detention. The president of the court told her to ''turn a new page'' and prevented her from speaking again, while the prosecutor said that he could ''not accept the Guinean army being discredited.''

Amnesty International is calling for the signature, ratification and above all, consistent application of the relevant international conventions aimed at preventing torture and ill-treatment in custody. The organization also calls for all states to take note of, and implement the recommendations aimed at preventing torture made by the Human Rights Committee and the Special Rapporteur on torture.

Background

The United Nations Committee against Torture which regularly reviews states' implementation of their obligations under the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment or Punishment has recommended specific provisions for the prevention of torture. In November 2000, when scrutinizing for example Cameroon' s record, it included in its recommendations provisions for the inadmissibility of evidence obtained through torture, for prompt and impartial inquiries into allegations of human rights violations, maintenance and public accessibility of a registry of detained persons, and mechanisms for the fullest possible compensation and rehabilitation of the victims of torture.

In spite of progress towards wider ratification of the Convention against Torture, very few African states have fully implemented the Convention or have explicitly recognized the competence of the United Nations Committee against Torture to consider inter-state or individual complaints by making a declaration under the respective Articles 21 and 22 of the Convention.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index...pen&of=ENG-FRA





Makes you wonder if they do this in their own country what they are doing or allowing to happen in the Ivory Coast. We already know that France was guilty of some of the worst human rights crimes in Algeria, with torture and summary executions. Interestingly, Chriac's regime has never issued a public apology for them or faced up to its judicial obligations.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index...pen&of=ENG-FRA



So it appears to me that torture is ok if:

1. Nobody finds out, or

2. You have third parties and rouge regimes carry out the actual torture while you slip them some cash and/or look away, or

3. You wait long enough that no formal apology or administrative justice seems necessary.

[brraverishhh]

Originally posted by Olivier
I do not know your standards for the US, but as for me i do not consider my country to have any right to commit torture. And as you point out there have been breaches in the past and today too. AFAIK mostly in police precincts since forty year.

I condemn all torture acts and I think trials should be held and the person responsible judged. No you don't! Show me the French forums where you post countless threads on French crimes the way you do here.

I support the setting up of an international criminal court to prosecute war crimes when the country who should judge them does not take care of it. Then you know that Chirac would be one of the first to be sent there, don't you?


And you Mira? I already posted SEVERAL TIMES that I am against torture. I'm against it for the same reasons that were cited in th article you posted. According to that analysis, French nationals should expect to be subject to repeated and sustained assaults over a number of days while being questioned, beaten with baseball bats and truncheons,urinated on, and threatened with a syringe and a blow-torch when traveling outside the country. And they shouldn't expect a trial for eight years. That's a lot of time to rot in a foreign prison.


The reality is, however, that democracies don't fight other democracies. So more likely than not, if our soldiers are caught by our enemies, they will be tortured and if they can't be used as bargining chips, they will be killed. So ultimately, it really is for our own sense of civilization and moral standrads that we conform to the treaties that we sign. If we want other countries to emulate us, then we need to at least try to live up to the perception that we want to convey of ourselves. The idea is to actually try and live by example.

Now I think the US is doing a pretty good job with that. Last night, I watched Senator Byrd lay into John Ashcroft in a world televised hearing. Ashcroft is at the top of the food chain! And there he is was being pummeled with questions and invective by US senators for all the world to see. Our media has been ruthless in their attacks and pursued their own investigation alongside the real hearing for American voters. I think our system is working perfectly fine if you really want to know.

France, however, appears to need some serious work. The prosecutor in the case I posted called for amnesty for the police officers if their convictions withstand their appeals. But how far up the food chain does this kind of abuse go in France?

Torture is never OK and must be outlawed totally. So get on it! Point me to those French forums where you post about French crimes. You must be the change you want to see, Oliver. Then I might actually respect you for once.