Must Europe assume more (financial) responsibilty for its defence?
 

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Never happen...

Corrected grammar mistakes in poll option.

As long as European nations are engaged in mutual protection pacts with the US the strategic need for them to spend more simply doesn't exist.

The US is already drawing down it's forces in Europe. US Army Europe has been reduced to about 4 brigades (approx 40,000 troops), and half of them are slated to move east into Romania and Bulgaria.

Well, the main forces are still in Germany, and since I live not far from the bases in Ramstein, Spangdahlem and Baumholder I am not under the impression that they will be removed soon.

Leaving aside the question of french national pride and also that France only recently has rejoined NATO after de Gaulles "policy of the empty chair", when has France made such a claim ?
I also want to hint at the efforts to build a european army, led by France AND Germany ( to mention just one of the countries that also might have a say in this). I also want to point to Europes political architecture that makes it impossible for one country to "assume" leadership.......
And lastly France is neither the largest european economy nor the most populous country nor the largest military force.

First i do not have the impression that the us troops stationed in germany are here to "defend europe" any more. This was the reason they were built, but not why there are still troops.

Second, I'd be pretty optimistic that the EU countries could easily defend themselves against any aggressor. Hard to imagine who might conventinally attack the EU anyway. Even Russias spending is less then 1/4 of the european total spending...

So for me there was no viable choice among the answers given.

What about downsizing the US military?

Given Europe's track record (starting every world war, killing millions upon millions), there needs to be some adult supervision there.

Matt

And Europe has not changed at all since then, I assume http://www.uspoliticsonline.net/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

I am not optimistic. IMO, Europe doesn't have the spine to fight another, major war.

That said, as far as conventional threats go, I'd still put Russia down as a threat. Especially given their recent actions and rhetoric. Then there is, of course, China.

Who knows? They've been supervised since the last outbreak of Word War.

(I'm being facetious, by the way. Returning to Bennyhill the sort of idiocy he inflicts on the rest of the forum. His threads can't be taken remotely seriously, so why not have some fun with them?)

If Europe has to, it certainly has the ability to fight any war. Europeans have been very successful at solving conflicts through soft power though and will prefer diplomacy over military action at any time. That does not mean that Germany, France, Britain and 27 other EU countries would not be able to put an impressive army on the ground would they see the necessity to do so.
And I have to disagree about Russia beeing a threat. I firstly have not seen Russia making threats towards western Europe recently ( and they would be extremely foolish to do so), and secondly you seem to underestimate the factor of economic interdependence in Europe. As much as Europe needs russian oil and gas Russia needs foreign investions and export markets.
To move agressively against Europe would be economic suicide for Russia and I see no indication of the russian leadership beeing lunatic enough for such a move.
Russias behaviour towards former soviet republics is a different story but Russia attacking the EU is not an option. Not really.

I am not talking about ability. Europe has plenty of weapons. What I am talking about is the will. IMO, Europe as a whole has become weak. Diplomacy has its place but so does violence.

I will also have to disagree when it comes to Russia. I believe one of the only reasons Russia has decided to remain largely out of western European business is because of the US. Strategically, we are still Europe's ace in the hole. If push comes to shove we are still there. Remove America from the equation and you will have a Europe without its largest, strategic parter and with a Europe that doesn't, IMO, have the stomach to put up much of a fight.

You are seriously claiming that Europeans would not fight for their freedom in such a scenario ?
And the point where we disagree is the economy. Russia would flush its own down the toilet should it attack western Europe, even left the US out of the question.
What purpose would such an attack have by the way ?
And that Russias army would be capable of defeating ALL western european militaries, among them nuclear powers like France and Britain also rather seems science fiction to me. The military option does not exist in Europe anymore, for nobody.

I believe they would fight. What I doubt is their ability to go as far as a country like, say Russia, would. To remain in a long, bitter slug match.

Could be any number of reasons. The Russian government looking to rally their people around a common cause, maybe? Or some crazed nationalist thinking Russia should be at the top of the European power ladder? We are already seeing their leaders calling for Russia to return to its former glory, whatever that means.

Are they capable of it now? No. Will they be in the future? Maybe. They are currently revamping their military structure and strategy, at a time when most European militaries are being downsized and allowed to 'decay'.

1. That depends on a number of reasons, for example how far such an attack would go.

2. That all depends on a number of premises and interpretations. I see no reason to doubt that Russias business community and the majority of its people prefer to build their country, trade and travel instead of a confrontation that would be to nobodys benefit. And you should also see that Putin is among others the man of big business in Russia. The oligarchs that are backing him would be the first to loose enormous amounts of money in that case. And support for him also has to a large extent economic reasons regarding ordinary Russians. His governement is already for that reason unlikely to make any such moves towards western Europe.

3. That´s why there is no alternative to integrate Russia into european structures, though not as member of the EU and though that road will be long and rocky, since Russia is a difficult partner.
And western european militaries are in a period of transformation and restructuring ( for example through forming european army structures). That is not the same as decay.

And you really believe that any western democracy (eg. your own), is truelly willing or able to remain in a long bitter real slug match ???

Given the lack of real sacrifice asked of your populance during this mini version of a slag matchy and the dissent or even worse non of my business attitude shown during the past years.

Hell we Euros, might be even worse in that regard, but not out in another league ( it's those damn democracys).

Yes, but the US forces that remain in Germany and the rest of Europe are only a shadow of what they once were, and they're about to be dispersed throughout a larger area into former Warsaw Pact countries. It isn't a force large enough to fend off a serious attack. If Europe can't come up with a force greater than 40,000 strong at a moment's notice, they really are in trouble.

What's all this about regional powers? Local governments worry about their own internal affairs. Territorial, provincial, and state governments worry about their own internal affairs. Why is it so difficult for nations to understand the same concept? Let each nation deal with its own internal affairs, and if any kind of regional power is needed, then let a supranational power like the EU or the UN deal with it. And of course the EU should deal only with its internal affairs too. When's the age of imperialism going to end? We don't need France, the US, China or any other nation sticking its nose outside its jurisdiction.

Agreed. The EU has been quite capable of protecting itself against real threats for years now.

Now, as far as threats from imaginary US bogeymen are concerned, without a doubt they need to quadruple their spending pronto.

Sarcasm aside, I don't think the issue is that Europe needs to increase its military spending, but rather that the US needs to reduce its. Real threats aside, imaginary Hollywood bogeymen don't exist.