[Hmntezmb]

I wonder what will eventually cause us to remove Karzai? Or Afghanis to do it themselves. Obviously he has been corrupted by power.

Karzai is corrupt. He always was corrupt. This is not a new development. This is also something that is a way of life in the part of the world. Actually, it's a way of life almost anywhere in the world that isn't developed. It's simply "how things are done".

[Trercakaressy]

Karzai is corrupt. He always was corrupt. This is not a new development. This is also something that is a way of life in the part of the world. Actually, it's a way of life almost anywhere in the world that isn't developed. It's simply "how things are done".

It doesnt have to be.

[RG3rGWcA]

It doesnt have to be.

Agreed, but it's not something we can do for them. It's something they need to figure out on their own. When they finally get sick of being dirt poor, though their country is rich in resources, oppressed, and killing each other they might decide it's not for them.

[movlabz]

What do you mean "we're"?

Do I honestly have to go over this with every right-winger on the site?

I'm a dual citizen of America and Canada. I pay taxes in both countries and am lucky enough to vote in both countries as well. I have lived in both countries and my work and travels are in both countries. Should there be some kind of large scale invasion of the US, I will go down and fight for the US and if there is a large scale invasion of Canada, I will fight to defend her too.

Apart from the US, Canada has the largest contingency of troops in Afghanistan. Canadian forces are known to train UN, NATO and US forces around the world, particularly in how to deal with mountainous regions like in Afghanistan.

If I were to be paid a dollar (Canadian please, since the US dollar is weak at the moment) for every time I get baited on my citizenship instead of having my valid points addressed by any right-wing-holier-than-thou on this site, I'd be fucking rich I tell ya (and interestingly enough those posts baiting me always stay up).

[Candykiss]

Agreed, but it's not something we can do for them. It's something they need to figure out on their own. When they finally get sick of being dirt poor, though their country is rich in resources, oppressed, and killing each other they might decide it's not for them.

But in the meantime if they are going to let enemies of the US set up camp, then we have to stay in control. If that means forcing them to choose a new representative, Im ok with that.

[markoiutrfffdsa]

If you wish to call all of our top military retarded, that makes your thoughts not worth a damn. Not only Gates, but every top military man in Afghanistan, in the cabinet and the Chief of Staffs disagree with you. You might try doing some reading about the current situation in Afghanistan, and by those that really know, instead of running off at the mouth.

As I said, our military leaders say that we cannot actually bet the Taliban in Afghanistan, as they are now too deeply entrenched, and the locals know they'll be around when the US goes home, as we must at some point.

The best our combat tested military brass says, we can make them ineffective, but we can no longer beat them, nor win. Well, actually, they say that with somewhere between 80,000 and 100,000 more men on the ground there, for several years, we could win. They also say that is impossible.

How many field grade commanders were "interviewed" either by Woodward or as part of a Congressional panel whose transcripts he read?

How many have you spoken to personally in the past week who are actually over in Afghanistan?

Zero?

Figured as much.

My prediction, Woodward's inane book and your inane commentary notwithstanding, by the time American forces have been drawn down to non-combat levels the Taliban will have been marginalized in Afghanistan to the point where they're no longer a threat to anyone.

Let's revist this topic in about a year and a half and then play "told ya so".

[anenselog]

How many field grade commanders were "interviewed" either by Woodward or as part of a Congressional panel whose transcripts he read?

How many have you spoken to personally in the past week who are actually over in Afghanistan?

Zero?

Figured as much.

My prediction, Woodward's inane book and your inane commentary notwithstanding, by the time American forces have been drawn down to non-combat levels the Taliban will have been marginalized in Afghanistan to the point where they're no longer a threat to anyone.

Let's revist this topic in about a year and a half and then play "told ya so".

You disregard what very learned and important men have had to say about this mess in Afganistan.

Frankly I am shocked that anyone would relegate book learning to the trash bin. Our own ignorance of history perhaps is due to your own attitude, and that is why we keep repeating the same mistakes time and time agan. Was it not Einsten that stated, insanity is repeating the same actions, yet expecting different results? One cannot know of those actions without some means of recording them down for posterity to see and use. You don't see much good in that?

[apannamma]

Mr. Secretary General, thank you for the chance to speak this morning, at what I believe is a critical juncture for our mission in Afghanistan.

In the past year, our men and women on the ground, in partnership with Afghan Forces, have dealt a heavy blow to the Taliban insurgency, securing population centers and pushing the Taliban out of vital areas in the south and east. Thanks to this progress, further detailed by General Petraeus, we have the opportunity this year to begin the first steps in a process that will transition the lead for security responsibility to the Government of Afghanistan by the end of 2014, in accordance with the principles our leaders agreed to at Lisbon. Yet even as we move ahead on transition, we know there will be harder and heavier fighting to come in the months ahead, and that many of the gains we have seen could be reversed if we do not remain fully committed to this effort.

So with that in mind, I want to address three main items today:

First, our mission in Afghanistan and the undeniable progress the ISAF campaign has made in the past year;
Second, my very serious concern that this progress could be threatened by ill-timed, precipitous, or uncoordinated national drawdowns; and,
Finally, how we can instead plan for a transition to Afghan lead that will be deliberate, organized, and coordinated – thus giving us the chance to make irreversible the security gains we have all fought so hard for.
http://www.defense.gov/speeches/spee...?speechid=1547 Gates thinks we're winning too. Imagine if this factual message was repeated as often as the body counts. How would Americans feel about the war then?

[DrunkMans]

You disregard what very learned and important men have had to say about this mess in Afganistan.

Frankly I am shocked that anyone would relegate book learning to the trash bin. Our own ignorance of history perhaps is due to your own attitude, and that is why we keep repeating the same mistakes time and time agan. Was it not Einsten that stated, insanity is repeating the same actions, yet expecting different results? One cannot know of those actions without some means of recording them down for posterity to see and use. You don't see much good in that?

Frankly I'm astonished that someone would read a book about war written by a journalist who has made a career out of playing "gottcha" with the government, and then come here and argue that it must be the Bible truth.

Frankly, I'm astonished that someone would read a book that revolves around what politically motivated General officers putting on a dog and pony show for their Commander in Chief (who has made clear his intention to draw down troops on a timeline regardless of the situation on the ground) "say", and then come here and argue that it must be the Bible truth.

I think doing that is stupid.

I love books, and I've even read one or two, but over reliance on books is a mistake.

Again, let's revist this topic in a year or so and see where things have netted out by then.

To have made up our minds based on a single book, especially when there is plenty of opinion to the contrary, is foolish at best.

[gdjfhdf]

Gates thinks we're winning too. Imagine if this factual message was repeated as often as the body counts. How would Americans feel about the war then?

Would be nice. Ain't gonna happen.

[FjFHQLJQ]

So what? Really. So fucking what? I'm talking to a dad at my kid's karate class last night and he's a reserve guy and he probably has to go over to Afghanistan in a couple of weeks. He's leaving his real job and his real family and going over there for what? He might not come home. I'm not being a smart ass here - I really want to know what everyone thinks is going to be accomplished over there - or what they think we are accomplishing or preventing with all these folks going over there? I say this is the perfect time to realize that we are not shaping anything over there, not accomplishing anything sustainable, and it's time to get the fuck out. This has been a massive fuckup by Bush Jr that has been rationalized as much as possible by the most losing position possible - we're in there, we can't leave now bullshit. We've seen US servicemen and women so disconnected from the honor of the military in this action that terrible things have been done. Kids are dying holding positions that are meaningless. The President(s) apparently could not give less of a shit because we haven't had a National address on why these kids are dying that I can remember. It's done. Fuck it. Bring everyone home. We might actually need an army sometime soon.

[lerobudrse]

So what? Really. So fucking what? I'm talking to a dad at my kid's karate class last night and he's a reserve guy and he probably has to go over to Afghanistan in a couple of weeks. He's leaving his real job and his real family and going over there for what? He might not come home. I'm not being a smart ass here - I really want to know what everyone thinks is going to be accomplished over there - or what they think we are accomplishing or preventing with all these folks going over there? I say this is the perfect time to realize that we are not shaping anything over there, not accomplishing anything sustainable, and it's time to get the fuck out. This has been a massive fuckup by Bush Jr that has been rationalized as much as possible by the most losing position possible - we're in there, we can't leave now bullshit. We've seen US servicemen and women so disconnected from the honor of the military in this action that terrible things have been done. Kids are dying holding positions that are meaningless. The President(s) apparently could not give less of a shit because we haven't had a National address on why these kids are dying that I can remember. It's done. Fuck it. Bring everyone home. We might actually need an army sometime soon.

I agree with this in spirit.

I think OEF is winnable and sustainable and has the potential to turn Afghanistan to a point where the Afghani people will have signifigantly brighter prospects for the future. I've also found that those veterans who feel that their service was meaningful far outnumber those who think it was meaningless, and that those who have served honorably far outnumber those who have engaged in any dishonorable behavior (by their standards, not by mine or yours or the media's).

But I think it's a crying fucking shame that we've got Americans over there.

I don't think that a hundred thousand Afghanis are worth one single American life. I don't think they're worth one single American sustaining a paper cut.

I've said many times that everything that we should have done over there was completed inisde a few weeks.

[tgs]

So what? Really. So fucking what? I'm talking to a dad at my kid's karate class last night and he's a reserve guy and he probably has to go over to Afghanistan in a couple of weeks. He's leaving his real job and his real family and going over there for what? He might not come home. I'm not being a smart ass here - I really want to know what everyone thinks is going to be accomplished over there - or what they think we are accomplishing or preventing with all these folks going over there? I say this is the perfect time to realize that we are not shaping anything over there, not accomplishing anything sustainable, and it's time to get the fuck out. This has been a massive fuckup by Bush Jr that has been rationalized as much as possible by the most losing position possible - we're in there, we can't leave now bullshit. We've seen US servicemen and women so disconnected from the honor of the military in this action that terrible things have been done. Kids are dying holding positions that are meaningless. The President(s) apparently could not give less of a shit because we haven't had a National address on why these kids are dying that I can remember. It's done. Fuck it. Bring everyone home. We might actually need an army sometime soon.

Case in point. Your opinion is shaped by emotion and a lack of perspective.

[Qxsumehj]

I agree with this in spirit.

I think OEF is winnable and sustainable and has the potential to turn Afghanistan to a point where the Afghani people will have signifigantly brighter prospects for the future. I've also found that those veterans who feel that their service was meaningful far outnumber those who think it was meaningless, and that those who have served honorably far outnumber those who have engaged in any dishonorable behavior (by their standards, not by mine or yours or the media's).

But I think it's a crying fucking shame that we've got Americans over there.

I don't think that a hundred thousand Afghanis are worth one single American life. I don't think they're worth one single American sustaining a paper cut.

I've said many times that everything that we should have done over there was completed inisde a few weeks.

Perhaps the question is how many American lives have been saved? For example if we had invaded a year before 911, could we have saved 3000 new yorkers?

[corsar-caribean]

Case in point. Your opinion is shaped by emotion and a lack of perspective.

Sure he exhibits emotions, but that does not mean hard cold facts are not driving those emotions.

How long we been in Afganistan? And JUST HOW MUCH have we improved THINGS? Surely by now if this was a winnable deal, we would have already been in the victory column.

The truth of the matter is obvious. We are wasting American lives and spending treasure we don't have! It is only the "ego" that keeps up there today. Egos are dangerous creations, and tend to cloud logical thought. Not to mention it also "takes" American lives that in the end will be truly wasted.

The reason we have not won a war since WW2 is because we no longer go in to WIN, and we have lost the ability to SEE what can be won and what cannot be won. When winning involves changing an ingrained culture, the odds will always be against us. Once you realize this, you would be less apt to throw all concerns to the wind and invade.

What are the chances that our own Nation could be invaded, and then the invaders change our culture? Slim to none. But we conveniently forget FACTS, and get in over our heads, with the ego not allowing us to get the hell out of Dodge. Can't stand to lose face, even if by doing so we go on losing Americans in the process. Ideas are much more important than American lives, it seems. But hell, most of us know just how powerful ideology is, so much so that it will trump any American life. And does. It's is complete insanity.

At some point in time we simply will not be able to afford to keep it up in Afganistan. We will not win shit. At that time, we will bring the boys and girls home, and all of those lives lost will be for NOTHING. History again repeating itself because our great leaders ignore history. And hawks such as yourself will be on the ready to invade another Nation, to repeat this madness over and over.

I think the emotions FOR the war is as great as the emotions on the other side. Because it's the damn emotions that is keeping us there today. We already KNOW we cannot win shit over there. But the damn emotions won't allow us to leave. Yeah, these emotions are a bitch.

[TiepayWrary]

Perhaps the question is how many American lives have been saved? For example if we had invaded a year before 911, could we have saved 3000 new yorkers?

That is assuming of course that the cells had not already been dispatched. But if Alexander the Great could have achieved victory, perhaps the Taliban would not have existed to give safe haven to Osama.

[occallExtet]

Perhaps the question is how many American lives have been saved? For example if we had invaded a year before 911, could we have saved 3000 new yorkers?

Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

We don't really have any way at all of knowing, or even supposing, what would have happened, but my inclination would be to believe that a pre-9/11 invasion wouldn't have had any effect on the events of 9/11.

A year prior the hijackers were in Germany or the United States. The money for the operation had already been transfered, the planning was already largely completed, the surveilence had already been done.

Maybe some intelligence that could have tipped off investigators to the planes operation might have been found in a cave somewhere. Maybe we would have actually gotten bin Laden and disrupted alQ enough that they called off or postponed the attack. Maybe any number of things could have happened. But there's no way to say how it would have shaken out.

ETA: Understand that I have no issues with the invasion as it occured, or with a pre-9/11 invasion for that matter. I think that going in there was the absolute right thing to do. What I take issue with is nation building and/or pprotracted "stabilization" campaigns.

[dselectronics]

That is assuming of course that the cells had not already been dispatched. But if Alexander the Great could have achieved victory, perhaps the Taliban would not have existed to give safe haven to Osama.

Thats as valid as my point was that we may very well be saving lives by preventing islamic terrorists safe haven.

[sDePrx59]

Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

We don't really have any way at all of knowing, or even supposing, what would have happened, but my inclination would be to believe that a pre-9/11 invasion wouldn't have had any effect on the events of 9/11.

A year prior the hijackers were in Germany or the United States. The money for the operation had already been transfered, the planning was already largely completed, the surveilence had already been done.

Maybe some intelligence that could have tipped off investigators to the planes operation might have been found in a cave somewhere. Maybe we would have actually gotten bin Laden and disrupted alQ enough that they called off or postponed the attack. Maybe any number of things could have happened. But there's no way to say how it would have shaken out.

ETA: Understand that I have no issues with the invasion as it occured, or with a pre-9/11 invasion for that matter. I think that going in there was the absolute right thing to do. What I take issue with is nation building and/or pprotracted "stabilization" campaigns.

Make it 2 years. You get my point. The issue is that peoples view of Afghanistan is based on little to no information.