That's a retarded position to take.

Joining the military and being sent to a war zone is completly legal as far as the individual Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine is concerned. You can argue all day long about whether or not a country is in the wrong, but the individual isn't culpable.

By comparison, robbing a bank is a crime. The bank robber is individually culpable for his behavior.

By your example, anyone who cashes a welfare check, regardless of their individual circumstances, is a thief for taking money out of my pocket, against my will.

It's just dumb.

I'm reminded of a line from one of the Flashman stories. He's in the sniper's position and he says something like "...I saw nothing but a target, and just about every man who's ever done it will say the same,". Yet 50 years on he still remembers every detail. Now these books are total fiction, and Flashman is DEFINITELY NEVER depicted as a heroic figure but stories from WWI, the first one where sniping actually was a respected and taught skill on a large scale, say pretty much the same.

What about someone volunteering for death camp guard duty in Nazi Germany?
By comparison, robbing a bank is a crime. The bank robber is individually culpable for his behavior.

By your example, anyone who cashes a welfare check, regardless of their individual circumstances, is a thief for taking money out of my pocket, against my will.

It's just dumb. Not sure about that comparison. Someone who cashes a welfare check is just getting money already allocated and taken from other citizens. The government is the one taking/giving it. A person signing up for the military, invading a foreign nation and then killing its defenders is actually doing the invading and killing. Now if the government made it legal to kill the rich for their money and the poor started raiding rich peoples' homes to take their possessions, you might have a point. But that is not the case.

I wasn't aware that the terms of the conversation had transmuted into working in death camps.

The comment you initially responded to was as follows;

I don't think there's a slight distinction between volunteering to work in a death camp and being involved in a meeting engagement, I think there's a HUGE distinction.

I'd agree with you that volunteering for duty in a genocidal death camp is absolutely wrong, and that killing under such circumstances absolutely isn't self defense.

But that isn't really the conversation we're having.

Not sure about that comparison. Yeah, me neither. I didn't actually intend as a 1:1 comparison and didn't really give it a whole lot of thought.

Someone who cashes a welfare check is just getting money already allocated and taken from other citizens. The government is the one taking/giving it. A person signing up for the military, invading a foreign nation and then killing its defenders is actually doing the invading and killing. And a dude signing up to serve in the military is just signing up to serve his country.

He could either wind up like I did, cooling my heels in Germany for four years just in case the Russians rolled across the border, or he can wind up in Afghanistan fighting for his life every day.

The government decides where he's sent.

But regardless of where he's sent, if he ultimately finds himself in a situation where it's kill or be killed, then fighting for his life and his buddies' lives is an act of self defense, in my opinion.

Not necessarily. Territory changed hands quite a bit during WWII. Say one day you're guarding the gas chamber and some Russians attack. Your CO, some legit guy called Reinhard Heydrich let's say, tells you to shoot back. Do you just sit there and wait to get killed or do you try to kill the attackers?
I'd agree with you that volunteering for duty in a genocidal death camp is absolutely wrong, and that killing under such circumstances absolutely isn't self defense.
What if they team up with some Russian POWs to try and kill you to escape?
But that isn't really the conversation we're having.



Yeah, me neither. I didn't actually intend as a 1:1 comparison and didn't really give it a whole lot of thought.



And a dude signing up to serve in the military is just signing up to serve his country.
And if they told the guy on the way to the welfare office that he had to hang a few people to get a welfare check, I'd find it somewhat unacceptable if he still hung them for it, too. The general function of the military is no secret.

He could either wind up like I did, cooling my heels in Germany for four years just in case the Russians rolled across the border, or he can wind up in Afghanistan fighting for his life every day.

The government decides where he's sent.

But regardless of where he's sent, if he ultimately finds himself in a situation where it's kill or be killed, then fighting for his life and his buddies' lives is an act of self defense, in my opinion. I suppose not every death camp guard expected to be attacked, either. Maybe some of them were even assigned to that duty. Who knows. Knowing what we know about the US military and if the Germans knew what we know about the German military now in the 1930's and 40's, I'd say it's pretty foolish to volunteer for either without expecting to commit some substantial evil. But in Nazi Germany, info wasn't so free and freedom to not join the military wasn't so available. What excuse do US troops have?

We are all a million throws of the emotional dice. I assume one has to compartmentalize his thoughts while in the situation. I have a friend who was a prisoner in Korea, had to be carried out weighing 80 lbs. He does not seem to have any regrets about his ordeal or hatred for the Koreans. I also worked with a Vietnam vet who showed great animosity toward Vietnamese, especially the ones we worked with. The question is what is the morality in these situations and how far into methods does it apply. It is in my opinion a question of self knowledge, if you know it's wrong, it is wrong. If you suspect it is wrong, and the situation allows, then you should weigh the answer with a person of trust, authority and knowledge. All other situations, when in the heat of conflict, cannot be judged. This brings an ethical and political delimma, how can another devine the intentions or knowledge of soldier accused or suspected? I am not sure there is any good answer to that. Very thoughtful thread

I'd say that if they're throwing Jews into a gas chamber they're not acting in self defense.

If they're fighting off a Soviet attack then they are.

You're talking about two different things.

Additionally, It's pretty clear that you've got an axe to grind and and that you think all American military are blood-thirsty baby killers and international criminals. Since I'm not going to play your stupid game it's best that we call it a day.

What if you volunteer, hoping to get the death camp guard position, but end up being ordered to throw jews into the oven?
Additionally, It's pretty clear that you've got an axe to grind and and that you think all American military are blood-thirsty baby killers and international criminals. Since I'm not going to play your stupid game it's best that we call it a day. Isn't this thread about the ethics of wartime killing? Seems foolish to ignore history.

Did you notice above where I said:

"Since I'm not going to play your stupid game it's best that we call it a day."

I meant it.

You can claim you won, I lost, do a little dance, whatever it is that gets you off.

But I'm done discussing this with you because the conversation has become, as I said, stupid.

I expect someone else will be along shortly to fall into the trap of having this circuitous debate with you. I hope that when they see I've clearly stated my beliefs several times, and those beliefs have never changed, but you've continued to rephrase the same question over and over and over again - they'll use my experience as an object lesson and not bother with you.

Have a good night.