[Seeseeskeva]

No need. I long ago learned to accept contradiction. You - on the other hand - confuse accepting the validity of contradiction with agreement with one or the other of the alternatives.

Thus, while I accept the idea of contradiction being valid, I only agree with one of the alternatives - the one I explained earlier.

In other words, you will be ignoring all other evidence to the contrary and despite posting contradictory statements you choose to believe your original assertion.

I assume that is what you were trying to say with that completely fractured sentence.

Got it.

((Give me a minute to put on my surprise face))

[Guaranano]

In honor of you being an arty guy I should have said I will just say "repeat" on the net.

Splash over.

Except he isn't the only one complaining. Of course I read of one coffee shop owner that doesn't have a problem because the OWS folks have been coming in and buying beverages and getting warm. The food carts and trucks are also doing a booming business. I was actually just thinking about that this morning. I work a concession stand on weekends, and obviously, I'm thrilled when there's large crowds of people outside. The fact that he is not getting any business from the protestors (who come from a relatively large variety of backgrounds and income levels)... suggests he may need to rethink his marketing strategy and pricing. Protestors need to eat and drink just like everyone else - so why aren't any of them coming in for a sandwhich or decaf? Is his food too expensive, or are his employees creating a hostile atmosphere? There could be any number of explanations.

[cwgwowcom]

Splash over.



I was actually just thinking about that this morning. I work a concession stand on weekends, and obviously, I'm thrilled when there's large crowds of people outside. The fact that he is not getting any business from the protestors (who come from a relatively large variety of backgrounds and income levels)... suggests he may need to rethink his marketing strategy and pricing. Protestors need to eat and drink just like everyone else - so why aren't any of them coming in for a sandwhich or decaf? Is his food too expensive, or are his employees creating a hostile atmosphere? There could be any number of explanations.

But his sales are down 30% from figures before the OWS showed up and that is the relevant point. There are a thousand reasons that 'could' explain the drop, up to and including your dragon but this guy is a sucessful businessman who evidently was making good business prior to the OWS and now isn't.

It seems some want to dimiss the notion that the OWS is having unwanted and unfair backlash because to admit that might seem that their cause is unjust. That is just silly. It is more a function of reality than anything.

[Liabmeasez]

But his sales are down 30% from figures before the OWS showed up and that is the relevant point. There are a thousand reasons that 'could' explain the drop, up to and including your dragon but this guy is a sucessful businessman who evidently was making good business prior to the OWS and now isn't.

It seems some want to dimiss the notion that the OWS is having unwanted and unfair backlash because to admit that might seem that their cause is unjust. That is just silly. It is more a function of reality than anything.

Then maybe this "businessman" needs to face up to reality and rethink his business, instead of whining that no one wants to buy his cinamon buns.

[yK2VgoEI]

Then maybe this "businessman" needs to face up to reality and rethink his business, instead of whining that no one wants to buy his cinamon buns.

Oh God yes, that is exactly the answer.

[StoyaFanst]

IMO its an Iranian plot.

[gactanync]

IMO its an Iranian plot.

One hatched in caves by a dragon no doubt.

[JohnMitchel]

Splash over.



I was actually just thinking about that this morning. I work a concession stand on weekends, and obviously, I'm thrilled when there's large crowds of people outside. The fact that he is not getting any business from the protestors (who come from a relatively large variety of backgrounds and income levels)... suggests he may need to rethink his marketing strategy and pricing. Protestors need to eat and drink just like everyone else - so why aren't any of them coming in for a sandwhich or decaf? Is his food too expensive, or are his employees creating a hostile atmosphere? There could be any number of explanations.

As I stated above, the most obvious issue is the fact that 90% of ALL Food Service venues fail in the first year in NYC for various reasons, and he has already done the normally proscribed behavior now that the weather has chased most of the Tourists back home. You are correct that the Protesters would flock to his business if he made them welcome, but - as I also stated above - His menu http://newyork.milkstreetcafe.com/Ou...ftyMilkSt.aspx is aimed at the Wall Street managerials and the Yuppies, not the Hourly Workers, so price is certainly an issue.

[Arexytece]

As I stated above, the most obvious issue is the fact that 90% of ALL Food Service venues fail in the first year in NYC for various reasons, and he has already done the normally proscribed behavior now that the weather has chased most of the Tourists back home. You are correct that the Protesters would flock to his business if he made them welcome, but - as I also stated above - His menu http://newyork.milkstreetcafe.com/Ou...ftyMilkSt.aspx is aimed at the Wall Street managerials and the Yuppies, not the Hourly Workers, so price is certainly an issue.

So.....

It is the tourists which have left, but they haven't. They are flocking to that area in record numbers.

It is his prices, which are comparable to other like resturants in the area.

It is his customer service for which there is no evidence it has been a problem.

It is the normal decline in a resturant doomed to fail within its first year.

But......it is not, by any stretch of the imagination a by-product of the OWS?

Is that your position?

[sleepergun]

Explain your hypothesis. Why would a massive crowd of hungry people outside your cafe be bad for business?

[Inenuedbabnor]

Explain your hypothesis. Why would a massive crowd of hungry people outside your cafe be bad for business?

Whose hypothesis?

If you are speaking to me I have no idea why the OWS crowd isn't patronizing the cafe (although they do have their own 'kitchen'). It also could be it is easier to navigate the barricades that were up earlier and patronize the food trucks and carts in the area. I haven't visited the site so I don't know. To believe Corny you would believe it is Epstein's employees' customer service or the (his opinion) high prices (although it has also been stated that all kinds of people, poor and not so poor are at OWS).

So tell me, what is your hypotesis?

Do you believe...

It is the tourists which have left? (Except they they haven't. They are flocking to that area in record numbers.)

It is his prices, which are comparable to other like resturants in the area?

It is his customer service for which there is no evidence it has been a problem?

It is the normal decline in a resturant doomed to fail within its first year?


Do you further believe it is not, by any stretch of the imagination a by-product of the OWS?

[jq0AFTTC]

Whose hypothesis?

If you are speaking to me I have no idea why the OWS crowd isn't patronizing the cafe (although they do have their own 'kitchen'). It also could be it is easier to navigate the barricades that were up earlier and patronize the food trucks and carts in the area. I haven't visited the site so I don't know. To believe Corny you would believe it is Epstein's employees' customer service or the (his opinion) high prices (although it has also been stated that all kinds of people, poor and not so poor are at OWS).

I agree.

So tell me, what is your hypotesis?

Do you believe...

It is the tourists which have left? (Except they they haven't. They are flocking to that area in record numbers.)

It is his prices, which are comparable to other like resturants in the area?

It is his customer service for which there is no evidence it has been a problem?

It is the normal decline in a resturant doomed to fail within its first year? Again, I agree, any combination of these could be true.


Do you further believe it is not, by any stretch of the imagination a by-product of the OWS? As I said earlier, as a businessman, he needs to adjust his business to the circumstances. As you said, there's a variety of backgrounds and incomes in the OWS crowd... so why are they not buying? True, the trucks and other vendors are competing - but that's called the free market. He can cry all day about losing business, but in the end it seems his competitors are capitalising on the protests better than he is.

[Knongargoapex]

Again, I agree, any combination of these could be true.

It could be the decrease in the number of tourists although the number of tourists have increased?!?!

His prices which are comparable to other like resturants in the area ?!?!

Maybe it's the font his menus are printed in.

As I said earlier, as a businessman, he needs to adjust his business to the circumstances. As you said, there's a variety of backgrounds and incomes in the OWS crowd... so why are they not buying? True, the trucks and other vendors are competing - but that's called the free market. He can cry all day about losing business, but in the end it seems his competitors are capitalising on the protests better than he is.

So you agree with Corny's assertion that the OWS has nothing to do with the decline in the cafe's business?

[OnlineViagraCheapestFREE]

[QUOTE=Joe Bonham;485369]I agree.



Again, I agree, any combination of these could be true.


As I said earlier, as a businessman, he needs to adjust his business to the circumstances. As you said, there's a variety of backgrounds and incomes in the OWS crowd... so why are they not buying? True, the trucks and other vendors are competing - but that's called the free market. He can cry all day about losing business, but in the end it seems his competitors are capitalising on the protests better than he is.[/QUOTE

Let's also not forget that 90% of all Food Venues that open in Manhattan fail in the first year for a whole host of reasons, and it is those who make the worst choices that tend to fall into bankruptcy soonest. The Trucks and other vendors tend to have the easiest time because they can move their venue to keep up with the movement of the customer base. Those that establish their business with the intent to serve the lowest common denominator are next in line since they have a large custermer base to serve. For that reason, all-you-can-eat-for-a-fixed-price venues fit this level, and do very well. The Chinese established this model in Manhattan, and they have expanded it to include foods not normally considered "Chinese", but which sell well and thus contribute to the profit margin. Other groups have followed suit, and so there are several all-you-can-eat-for-a-fixed-price venues in lower Manhattan.

The Take Out venues tend to stay open Monday through Friday to serve the Hourly Workers who are there at those times, with the exceptions of the McDonalds and Burger Kings and Wendies, who extend their hours during the Summer Tourist season.

[Vobomei]

Let's also not forget that 90% of all Food Venues that open in Manhattan fail in the first year for a whole host of reasons, and it is those who make the worst choices that tend to fall into bankruptcy soonest. The Trucks and other vendors tend to have the easiest time because they can move their venue to keep up with the movement of the customer base. Those that establish their business with the intent to serve the lowest common denominator are next in line since they have a large custermer base to serve. For that reason, all-you-can-eat-for-a-fixed-price venues fit this level, and do very well. The Chinese established this model in Manhattan, and they have expanded it to include foods not normally considered "Chinese", but which sell well and thus contribute to the profit margin. Other groups have followed suit, and so there are several all-you-can-eat-for-a-fixed-price venues in lower Manhattan.

The Take Out venues tend to stay open Monday through Friday to serve the Hourly Workers who are there at those times, with the exceptions of the McDonalds and Burger Kings and Wendies, who extend their hours during the Summer Tourist season.

And I heard that the fare price on the MARTA in Atlanta is going up.

Desparation anyone?

[steevytraunse]

It could be the decrease in the number of tourists although the number of tourists have increased?!?!

His prices which are comparable to other like resturants in the area ?!?!

Maybe it's the font his menus are printed in.

Or his customer service. And simply having prices that are "comparable" to other venues isn't necessarily enough.

So you agree with Corny's assertion that the OWS has nothing to do with the decline in the cafe's business? Or his failure to market to them.

I'm not going to give a definite answer, because I can't "know" what his problem is.

[gundas]

There is another distinct possibility that no one has mentioned, perhaps because it doesn't get a lot of press outside of the city--some businesses are suffering because many of the protestors are not buying food, period.

As TJ mentioned, there is a kitchen that serves up food to the protestors. Located in Brooklyn, they cook up what they can from donated food and truck it in to the protest site. Others do buy food in the area, and some businesses in the immediate vicinity have adjusted prices down in hopes of increasing traffic. HOWEVER, there have also been multiple, and repeated, reports of protestors demanding free food from local businesses. Some businesses have had to increase security because of belligerent individuals. Other food vendors and food carts have moved away from the area for security reasons. Some protestors have gotten violent with employees over a lack of willingness to provide free food and/or restroom access. And these have not been isolated incidents. Perhaps they are "1%" of the protestors that get the airtime, but it hasn't happened just once. There are certainly individuals who routinely "mooch" off the protest, and perhaps they are the ones causing the trouble. But regardless of who is causing the trouble, the mere fact that these confrontations have been reported IS enough to keep some people away. Friends of mine have had to alter routes to get to work, not because of fear but because of accessibility. There are those, however, who will alter routes out of concern. Either way....lessened foot traffic = lessened business. Pretty simple, yes? In that neighborhood, in particular, food business is largely from two customer bases: corporate catering and foot traffic. There are enough restaurants around that people will rarely make the effort to go to one establishment with hindered accessibility if another one is readily available--unless they really, really, REALLY like one particular place.

Amid reports last week of protestors relieving themselves in the streets, an individual involved in the encampment responded with "We wouldn't have to if local businesses let us use their restrooms.". They don't seem to understand that, while they have the ability to protest if they'd like, others do not have the obligation to provide for them. Brookfield Properties does not have the obligation to set aside park regulations simply because people want to protest. Local restaurants do not have an obligation to provide free food simply because some protestors think that all debt should be erased and college educations should be free. Not everything in the world is free, and the sooner they realize this, the better. The sense of entitlement does not suit them well, and hurts their cause among those looking at the movement with a critical, rather than emotional, eye.

As for the prices listed, those are comparable to other options in that neighborhood. At my local bodega (which has the cheapest milk around to give you a simple price comparison), a bagel with cream cheese and jelly is $1.50. Traveling to the Financial District and seeing the listed increase is not a huge surprise. They charge that because businesspeople in the neighborhood will pay it. Very simple.

As for the assertion that

1. Tourist season is over: While the weather is cooling off, true, have you heard of a few things known as Thanksgiving and Christmas? Have you been in NYC during either of these time periods? Specifically, have you been to Times Square, Rockefeller Center, Central Park and midtown in general during these time periods? If so, you'd be the LAST to say the tourist season is over and numbers are "back to normal". The demographics of tourists may change, and the number may lessen slightly, but not to the extent that business DROPS 30%. To give you an idea, my business' numbers usually INCREASE by 20-30% around this time. While the warmer weather in summer can bring additional tourists, the sweltering weather also keeps some away. Certain times in the summer can be eerily quiet for exactly this reason.

2. "the number of customers for this resturant [sic] has subsided to normal Fall/Winter numbers": Do you know what his customer count is? Do you know what "normal" numbers should be? It would be wise to know such things before making such a widesweeping assertion.

3. Trump is a whiner: That may well be. But he also has a voice to which people listen. Businesses have been complaining about the barricades for weeks, to little avail. Trump complains on their behalf and what happens? Oh, right...accessibility opens up. Funny how that works. Unfortunate, perhaps, but hardly surprising.

And on top of all this, let's be honest. The vast majority of tourists in that area are not spending time in restaurants past barricades in the protest zone. They take a look at Ground Zero, spend a few hours terrorizing shoppers at Century 21 across the street and then go home.

[drycleden]

Or his customer service. And simply having prices that are "comparable" to other venues isn't necessarily enough.



Or his failure to market to them.

I'm not going to give a definite answer, because I can't "know" what his problem is.

If you can't know what his problem is then you can know what it is not and yet you (and Corny) have avoided mentioning even the possibility that the OWS could be responsible for the decline in business.

This in itself illustrates the agenda you are working from. I said earlier that there seems to be some ridiculous notion that if you say anything that casts any negative light on the OWS (regardless how true it is) then you are saying the OWS (nationally or globally) shouldn’t be taking place. This is as silly as taking isolated incidents which occur at say a Tea Party rally or the OWS site in any city and paint the whole movement with that example. Both are specious and disingenuous.

[PypeMaypetasy]

If you can't know what his problem is then you can know what it is not and yet you (and Corny) have avoided mentioning even the possibility that the OWS could be responsible for the decline in business.

This in itself illustrates the agenda you are working from. I said earlier that there seems to be some ridiculous notion that if you say anything that casts any negative light on the OWS (regardless how true it is) then you are saying the OWS (nationally or globally) shouldn’t be taking place. This is as silly as taking isolated incidents which occur at say a Tea Party rally or the OWS site in any city and paint the whole movement with that example. Both are specious and disingenuous.

So... why would the protest be "responsible" for his business?

[Fekliopas]

So... why would the protest be "responsible" for his business?

Really? Word usage? How about 'a causative factor in the decline in his business'? Will that work for you. There are many uses of the word 'responsible'. You can be responsible for your children. You can be held responsible for an accident.