[marcusdexz]

First you need to do some research on this guy. He was a POS terrorist and basically gave up any constitutional protections he had by declaring war on the USA. Screw him and the rest of them. He got what was long overdue and deserved. And no one in the US is going to get killed for being a political activist or speaking out etc. Take off the tin foil hat and uncover your windows…it will be ok. This guy was the high level leader in a terrorist organization advocating killing Americans on a massive scale if possible and in a foreign land…the world is a better and safer place without him.

Oh, and the US has not declared war on Muslims, just those that want to kill us. They started this fight...how can you forget that???

Rest of them? or rest of us? I never heard of this guy until he popped up today on every news network. I'm sure your wikipedia gave you all that wonderful info on the guy. WE STARTED THIS FIGHT, we've been in it since we chose to become an Empire of Freedom, it's time we became aware of that and maybe considered how many of the complaints we wrote against King George in our Declaration of Independence now apply to us, but with the shoe on the other foot.

[Ibrattnofich]

We started this fight?? You can't be serious. This fight began on Sep. 11th 2001. We were attacked. Thousands of innocent Amercians were killed for NO reason what so ever. Try any news site, HIS OWN videos are out there to see also.

[citicroego]

We started this fight?? You can't be serious. This fight began on Sep. 11th 2001. We were attacked. Thousands of innocent Amercians were killed for NO reason what so ever. Try any news site, HIS OWN videos are out there to see also.

Better check your history bub, we've been in this far longer than that, realistically we pretty much jumped full force in the Middle East right after WWII, something about a "Shah" and all that jazz. Might have made an impact one might think.

[juspimoubbodo]

Yes no doubt we have been there. Just as other countries have been in the US (embassies ect) and if they did'n want us there we would not be there. Never once did we do anything to justify the killing of innocent Americans. Not one thing! The fact that you are defending them is hard to stomach.

[Rinkeliacasse]

Yes no doubt we have been there. Just as other countries have been in the US (embassies ect) and if they did'n want us there we would not be there. Never once did we do anything to justify the killing of innocent Americans. Not one thing! The fact that you are defending them is hard to stomach.

Defending them? How about questioning our government's policies? Isn't that what the Constitution was written specifically for a US Citizen to be able to do? We could tick off a list of transgressions the US is guilty of and discuss in detail this CIA term referred to as "blowback" if you really wish. I'd prefer you review what is out there yourself rather than get it all from me. We have a huge stake in this business, and these neo-conservative policies we've been embracing for far too long have not only turned a lot of people against us but nearly bankrupted us. It's about time we look toward what we can fix ourselves in the way we relate to the rest of the world rather than just assume they're against us because they're "just evil and they hate us".

[VodsNittats]

Nope because I dont put myself in those positions.

For now...

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

~Martin Niemöller

[Serttyfd]

First you need to do some research on this guy. He was a POS terrorist

Unlikely. He verbally supported efforts against the American government, and he advocated violent measures against American support for the Yemen dictatorship. But did he take a hand in the actions themselves? Unlikely.

and basically gave up any constitutional protections he had by declaring war on the USA. The 1st Amendment?

Screw him and the rest of them. What do you mean by "them"? If you mean enemies of the American Security Apparatus, that could mean anybody, you and me included.

He got what was long overdue and deserved. And no one in the US is going to get killed for being a political activist or speaking out etc. Take off the tin foil hat and uncover your windows…it will be ok. This guy was the high level leader in a terrorist organization advocating killing Americans on a massive scale if possible and in a foreign land…the world is a better and safer place without him.

[QUOTE]
Oh, and the US has not declared war on Muslims, just those that want to kill us.

They started this fight...how can you forget that??? Indeed. 9/11 could be considered the greatest military victory in the history of the human race. In a single day, bin Laden accomplished what Imperial Japan, the Third Reich, and all our other foes failed to do - he destroyed American Democracy.

You're worried about the terrorists winning? They've already won.

[oxinsnepe]

We started this fight?? You can't be serious. This fight began on Sep. 11th 2001. We were attacked. Thousands of innocent Amercians were killed for NO reason what so ever. Try any news site, HIS OWN videos are out there to see also.

Well, lets list off our Muslim buddies real quick:

Saddam Hussein - former pawn of the American government.

Osama bin Laden - everybody knows the story... "heroic freedom fighter" against the Commies. Only problem was the Commies were defeated... but Osama didn't just go away after.

Libya - Long-time bedfellow of the CIA.

Yemen - why do they hate us? Maybe because we support that wildly unpopular and brutal dictatorship.

Iran - where do I even start? The Shah? The Iran-Iraq War? The Reagan Administration? American Intervention goes back a long way in this country... and none of it is pretty.

Pakistan - How many more drone strikes are we going to get away with before we really start to piss these people off?

Egypt - the political upheaval isn't over yet... but if a populist party takes power... we've spent years supporting a grossly violent and corrupt regime, and sending them money and weapons contracts... things might not look too good for Israel if those weapons are no longer in friendly hands.

Turkey - believe it or not, Turkey used to be a staunch ally of the United States. Then Bush II went on his Iraq boondoggle. Now recent polls show the vast majority of the Turkish people believe the US to be the biggest threat to world peace. American diplomacy at its finest.

[Jackson]

Well, lets list off our Muslim buddies real quick:

Saddam Hussein - former pawn of the American government.

Osama bin Laden - everybody knows the story... "heroic freedom fighter" against the Commies. Only problem was the Commies were defeated... but Osama didn't just go away after.

Libya - Long-time bedfellow of the CIA.

Yemen - why do they hate us? Maybe because we support that wildly unpopular and brutal dictatorship.

Iran - where do I even start? The Shah? The Iran-Iraq War? The Reagan Administration? American Intervention goes back a long way in this country... and none of it is pretty.

Pakistan - How many more drone strikes are we going to get away with before we really start to piss these people off?

Egypt - the political upheaval isn't over yet... but if a populist party takes power... we've spent years supporting a grossly violent and corrupt regime, and sending them money and weapons contracts... things might not look too good for Israel if those weapons are no longer in friendly hands.

Turkey - believe it or not, Turkey used to be a staunch ally of the United States. Then Bush II went on his Iraq boondoggle. Now recent polls show the vast majority of the Turkish people believe the US to be the biggest threat to world peace. American diplomacy at its finest.

Joe, your schtick is getting old. Ok, here goes:

Saddamm was never anyone's puppet. Brutal Baath party leader, lead the secret police based on gestaupo when his cousin ran things pre-1979.

UBL: not a hero, a financier. He had the hero of that war killed 10 Sep 01 (Maasoud)

Libya: CIA?? Come on. Terrorist attacks in the 80's before your time?

Yemen: they hate everybody,, except terrorists

Iran: check the calendar, Reagan took office in Jan 81 (the day the hostages were released), Shah fell in 79. How have things gone there since?

Pakistan: That's UAV attacks.

Egypt: Too young to remember Nasser and pre-Camp David agreement Sadat?

Turkey: pre OIF, we couldn't go onto Iraq through Turkey, 173d Airborne jumped in instead.

[sestomosi]

Joe, your schtick is getting old. Ok, here goes:

Saddamm was never anyone's puppet. Brutal Baath party leader, lead the secret police based on gestaupo when his cousin ran things pre-1979.

UBL: not a hero, a financier. He had the hero of that war killed 10 Sep 01 (Maasoud)

Libya: CIA?? Come on. Terrorist attacks in the 80's before your time?

Yemen: they hate everybody,, except terrorists

Iran: check the calendar, Reagan took office in Jan 81 (the day the hostages were released), Shah fell in 79. How have things gone there since?

Pakistan: That's UAV attacks.

Egypt: Too young to remember Nasser and pre-Camp David agreement Sadat?

Turkey: pre OIF, we couldn't go onto Iraq through Turkey, 173d Airborne jumped in instead.

Joe's schtick is getting old, why? because he's also right?

Ever view the photo of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam? I'll bet a two minute internet search will fix that. Not our puppet per se, but we gave him a whole lot of support against Iran in the 80's.

It would be fairly simple to make this a back and forth item by item fencing tournament that I see JB especially frequent on these forums. But instead I think it would be better if people became familiar with the whole "blowback" concept. More often than not, many of the problems we're experiencing today are those that we helped create. We've been playing at our little empire with puppet states and satellites for nearly seven decades now, and unsurprisingly, those countries who have witnessed our drunken service members raping their local women and paid from for acres of their own sovereign territory to host a US military base might be a little tired of it. All for some notion that they must need the "security" we provide, whether they asked for it or not. There are too many examples of empires in our history that fell simply because they overextended themselves, I'd prefer our country not be added to that list.

[VUzgOhgv]

And what do you think it takes to "put yourself in those positions"?

We know next to nothing about this guy, and there wasn't even a pretense of providing actual evidence. Now maybe in this case he was a bad person, but that doesn't make ignoring the process okay.

How can you say we know next to nothing. He has been in the news for terror related activity for at least 5 years now. Has been linked to Hassan (fort hood), richard reid (the shoe bomber) and several other terror attacks.

And this ties in perfectly with our "No Fly List" Gestapo crap. You can be put on the No Fly list for pretty much any reason with no judicial process... you might not even KNOW you're on the no-fly list until you try to buy a plane ticket. There have been documented cases of people leaving the USA for business or family, and not being able to return because some cook in the FBI decided he might be a "terrorist".

Now this i do agree with. One of the guys who we just got into the command i work at had to work for almost 7 months to get his name off the 'No fly list" just cause of his name.. AND get this, the guy was working in Centcom (Bahrain) at the damn embassy (doing their message traffic). He has been vetted for 16 years and cleared for a TS clearance each time. So how the heck is he worthy for being on a no fly list????:?"

And how about customs? You come home from some trip overseas, and the schmuck searching your belongings decides your $2000 laptop is "evidence" and confiscates it. It'll be weeks or months before you ever see that sucker again... assuming you ever see it again at all

I have not heard of any of those incidents.. Got any links?

On the domestic side, there's our seizure laws, which allows law enforcement during a criminal investigation to seize private property, whether or not any charges are filed against you, or anybody. That $5000 of electronics the cops seized from your house while searching it? Just kiss it goodbye. You're not going to see it again.

Now again i agree with this. I have heard of 3 fellow Navy folk who's friends/relatives had masses of electronics seized under warrants, later no charges filed, and STILL have not had their property brought back. I also know one guy personally who had his car siezed at the border coming back from 3 weeks leave. They seized it under the pretense of a drug search, stripped it down completly and when they found nothing just handed him back the frame and 8 large boxes of all the pieces... Not heard from him recently if he managed to get a suit against them for NOT putting it back together.

And if you decide to take a picture or video of your civil rights being trampled? Good luck with that. There are countless cases of police, FBI, TSA, etc arresting or verbally/physically assaulting people attempting to video their activity... and of course confiscating the camera. Hope you didn't spend too much money on that thing... you're never going to see it again.

IIRC there was a news story 3 weeks ago out of Florida of a woman IN HER HOUSE videoing the police outside stopping and searching someone's car.. 2 cops broke her door in and seized her camera. So again i agree, there needs to be something done.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me.

~Martin Niemöller I'd add
"Then they came for the smokers, i did not speak out cause i was not a smoker --
Then they came for the obese cause i am not fat, i didn't speak out"

[soineeLom]

How can you say we know next to nothing. He has been in the news for terror related activity for at least 5 years now. Has been linked to Hassan (fort hood), richard reid (the shoe bomber) and several other terror attacks.

The "News" simply repeats whatever garbage they're told by the district attorney (or relevant spokesman for that particular event)

Hell, a few years ago weren't we hearing about the villainous rapists at Duke University assaulting the poor innocent virgin schoolgirl? Every slanderous and baseless accusation by the prosecution was echoed by the news services.

Now this i do agree with. One of the guys who we just got into the command i work at had to work for almost 7 months to get his name off the 'No fly list" just cause of his name.. AND get this, the guy was working in Centcom (Bahrain) at the damn embassy (doing their message traffic). He has been vetted for 16 years and cleared for a TS clearance each time. So how the heck is he worthy for being on a no fly list????:?" Agreed. Is a No fly list a good idea? It might be a good preventive measure to prevent a truly dangerous person from carrying out an attack... but there needs to be a sensible legal process to add a name on the list... not because Joe Blow at the Agency thinks its a good idea.

I have not heard of any of those incidents.. Got any links? This is what I got with a couple minutes on Google... there was a couple really good articles on the subject, but I can't find them now... I'll look again when I get the time this evening.

But for now, there's this:
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...aptop-searches

While it can be annoying for your laptop to be seized, and they might damage/lose it... but this can be very serious if you're traveling on business, and have sensitive information on your hard drive that you wouldn't want released to the world.

Now again i agree with this. I have heard of 3 fellow Navy folk who's friends/relatives had masses of electronics seized under warrants, later no charges filed, and STILL have not had their property brought back. I also know one guy personally who had his car siezed at the border coming back from 3 weeks leave. They seized it under the pretense of a drug search, stripped it down completly and when they found nothing just handed him back the frame and 8 large boxes of all the pieces... Not heard from him recently if he managed to get a suit against them for NOT putting it back together. I've heard stories of people from other countries being simply amazed at the amount of crap they have to go through just to get into the US... and God help you if you're on the TSA's list of "enemies"... China, Korea, any Middle Eastern Country...
IIRC there was a news story 3 weeks ago out of Florida of a woman IN HER HOUSE videoing the police outside stopping and searching someone's car.. 2 cops broke her door in and seized her camera. So again i agree, there needs to be something done. On the bright side, cameras are just so common, and pretty much every cell phone in existence has a camera... there are just too many out there for the police to effectively control them.
I'd add
"Then they came for the smokers, i did not speak out cause i was not a smoker --
Then they came for the obese cause i am not fat, i didn't speak out" Exactly. Everybody is affected.

Now I've got some pretty lefty views... so obviously I'm not worried about "Big Government"... what I am concerned about however, is MILITARIZED government. So do I have a problem with Police? No, but I do have a problem with police running around with assault rifles, tear gas, and armored vehicles. Why do they need that shit? This isn't Fallujah.

[Leczyslaw]

And what do you think it takes to "put yourself in those positions"?

We know next to nothing about this guy, and there wasn't even a pretense of providing actual evidence. Now maybe in this case he was a bad person, but that doesn't make ignoring the process okay.

And this ties in perfectly with our "No Fly List" Gestapo crap. You can be put on the No Fly list for pretty much any reason with no judicial process... you might not even KNOW you're on the no-fly list until you try to buy a plane ticket. There have been documented cases of people leaving the USA for business or family, and not being able to return because some cook in the FBI decided he might be a "terrorist".

And how about customs? You come home from some trip overseas, and the schmuck searching your belongings decides your $2000 laptop is "evidence" and confiscates it. It'll be weeks or months before you ever see that sucker again... assuming you ever see it again at all

On the domestic side, there's our seizure laws, which allows law enforcement during a criminal investigation to seize private property, whether or not any charges are filed against you, or anybody. That $5000 of electronics the cops seized from your house while searching it? Just kiss it goodbye. You're not going to see it again.

And if you decide to take a picture or video of your civil rights being trampled? Good luck with that. There are countless cases of police, FBI, TSA, etc arresting or verbally/physically assaulting people attempting to video their activity... and of course confiscating the camera. Hope you didn't spend too much money on that thing... you're never going to see it again.

All the while making us "safer" from the scary Muslims. Move along sheeple. Nothing to see here.

The public might not know anything about Awalki but they don't need to. He was a terrorist plain and simple. This isn't about "making us safer from scary Muslims." It's not about him being (or thinking that he was) Muslim. Him and his little buddy were terrorists - that's what happens when you're a traitor to your country and plot to kill innocent Americans. They should've learned after we got bin Laden - but oh I guess he should've gotten a "fair trial" too? Puh-lease.

[Finkevannon]

[QUOTE=Joe Bonham;475363]

Well, there is this thing some people think is important called a "trial". Perhaps you've heard of it.



And don't worry. Your political masters would never DREAM of abusing these limitless powers you've given them. Patriot Act, assassination, Gitmo... they would NEVER misuse any of these powers. EVER. The government will only violate the civil rights of the "bad guys".


Iraq ring a bell? Afghanistan ring a bell? Libya ring a bell? Pakistan ring a bell? Yemen ring a bell? Considering the American government has essentially declared war on the entire Muslim world and is absolutely hellbent on stealing all of their natural resources... I'm surprised more of them aren't trying to kill us.

Since when has the US government declared war on the Muslim world? And what oil are we "stealing?" If we were stealing all the oil in the Middle East gas wouldn't be so damn expensive here! Is it our fault that most of the terrorists seem to be in the Middle East? And then you had guys like Awalki recruiting IN the US? Yeah you and the ACLU can bitch about this all you want. Awlaki was a terrorist, he was a traitor he got what he deserved.

[Ervntewc]

Agreed. Is a No fly list a good idea? It might be a good preventive measure to prevent a truly dangerous person from carrying out an attack... but there needs to be a sensible legal process to add a name on the list... not because Joe Blow at the Agency thinks its a good idea.

Personally i would like the list to work thus.
1) the FBI/other agency puts out list of who they feel should be on it
2) the justice dept sends letter to said people
3) said people get X amt of time to refute what the agencies say
4) judge makes final call.

This is what I got with a couple minutes on Google... there was a couple really good articles on the subject, but I can't find them now... I'll look again when I get the time this evening.

But for now, there's this:
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...aptop-searches

While it can be annoying for your laptop to be seized, and they might damage/lose it... but this can be very serious if you're traveling on business, and have sensitive information on your hard drive that you wouldn't want released to the world.

Will have to look that up..

I've heard stories of people from other countries being simply amazed at the amount of crap they have to go through just to get into the US... and God help you if you're on the TSA's list of "enemies"... China, Korea, any Middle Eastern Country...

That's why i won't fly if i can help it these days.. Too much BS.

Now I've got some pretty lefty views... so obviously I'm not worried about "Big Government"... what I am concerned about however, is MILITARIZED government. So do I have a problem with Police? No, but I do have a problem with police running around with assault rifles, tear gas, and armored vehicles. Why do they need that shit? This isn't Fallujah.

When the criminals they go after have them i think we should as well.. BUT i do feel cops these days are too quick to draw down a lot of times.

[AbraroLib]

I'd like to point out that there is a thing called territoriality of law, which means that laws apply to a jurisdiction where they can be enforced. A person in the United States (whether they are a citizen or not) is entitled to the rights afforded by the Constitution and our law. Outside the US those rights do not apply, simply for the fact that they cannot be enforced outside our land.

Anwar al-Aulaqi was an Al Qaeda leader, he was a spokesman for AQ and directly inspired numerous terrorist attacks on US citizens. He was a terrorist and an enemy combatant. If he was living in New Jersey we would have sent a SWAT team to arrest him and put him on trial (whether he was an American citizen or not). But he wasn't in New Jersey, he was in a lawless corner of Yemen and the Yemenis are in no position to arrest him b/c they can barely control their own nation.

The President, the military and the CIA did the absolute right thing in removing this man from the human race.

[Nicihntm]

The "News" simply repeats whatever garbage they're told by the district attorney (or relevant spokesman for that particular event)

Hell, a few years ago weren't we hearing about the villainous rapists at Duke University assaulting the poor innocent virgin schoolgirl? Every slanderous and baseless accusation by the prosecution was echoed by the news services.



Agreed. Is a No fly list a good idea? It might be a good preventive measure to prevent a truly dangerous person from carrying out an attack... but there needs to be a sensible legal process to add a name on the list... not because Joe Blow at the Agency thinks its a good idea.



This is what I got with a couple minutes on Google... there was a couple really good articles on the subject, but I can't find them now... I'll look again when I get the time this evening.

But for now, there's this:
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...aptop-searches

While it can be annoying for your laptop to be seized, and they might damage/lose it... but this can be very serious if you're traveling on business, and have sensitive information on your hard drive that you wouldn't want released to the world.



I've heard stories of people from other countries being simply amazed at the amount of crap they have to go through just to get into the US... and God help you if you're on the TSA's list of "enemies"... China, Korea, any Middle Eastern Country...


On the bright side, cameras are just so common, and pretty much every cell phone in existence has a camera... there are just too many out there for the police to effectively control them.


Exactly. Everybody is affected.

Now I've got some pretty lefty views... so obviously I'm not worried about "Big Government"... what I am concerned about however, is MILITARIZED government. So do I have a problem with Police? No, but I do have a problem with police running around with assault rifles, tear gas, and armored vehicles. Why do they need that shit? This isn't Fallujah.

Let me guess the FBI took those articles you had seen off the Internet.

Yes the "No Fly List' and "Terrorist Watch List" are flawed and there have been many incidents of people who are quite obviously not terrorists or criminals being on the list (children for example). No one is perfect and the intel game is pretty tricky. Do the lists work? Probably sometimes but those lists are for travel in or out of the US. Do other countries use those lists or do we share those lists with them? I don't know.

I do think though that you get a little far out in left field quite often. What police are running around every day with tear gas, assault rifles and armored vehicles? The only time I ever see tear gas used by the police is during riot control.

[somasideff]

[QUOTE=candycane3482;475483]

Since when has the US government declared war on the Muslim world? And what oil are we "stealing?" If we were stealing all the oil in the Middle East gas wouldn't be so damn expensive here! Is it our fault that most of the terrorists seem to be in the Middle East? And then you had guys like Awalki recruiting IN the US? Yeah you and the ACLU can bitch about this all you want. Awlaki was a terrorist, he was a traitor he got what he deserved.

Kind of yeah, we absolutely had to take down the USSR at the end of the Cold War and the easiest means for them to do that was to see them bankrupt themselves in Afghanistan. Guess who the Soviets were up against in Afghanistan? It wasn't American soldiers, but we supported the local resistance cells. Now do we want to guess who those were?

[iodigmaFemZem]

I'd like to point out that there is a thing called territoriality of law, which means that laws apply to a jurisdiction where they can be enforced. A person in the United States (whether they are a citizen or not) is entitled to the rights afforded by the Constitution and our law. Outside the US those rights do not apply, simply for the fact that they cannot be enforced outside our land.

Anwar al-Aulaqi was an Al Qaeda leader, he was a spokesman for AQ and directly inspired numerous terrorist attacks on US citizens. He was a terrorist and an enemy combatant. If he was living in New Jersey we would have sent a SWAT team to arrest him and put him on trial (whether he was an American citizen or not). But he wasn't in New Jersey, he was in a lawless corner of Yemen and the Yemenis are in no position to arrest him b/c they can barely control their own nation.

The President, the military and the CIA did the absolute right thing in removing this man from the human race.

So, by this imperative, the minute I cross the US border, I am suddenly absolved to all commitments of US citizenship or regards for the US Constitution then? Sweet, time to make a trip to Mexico and get myself all doped up and maybe rob a few people. Since I am no longer required to observe US laws I might as well take full advantage right? Oh crap, I forgot, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence never caveat our Constitution's applicability towards rights of citizenship based on geographic location. Your comments would be applicable if the strikes were committed by non-US actors. However, it was committed by our own Military, who is also sworn to support and defend the US Constitution. The precedents we've been setting for the past six decades have pushed us a long way down the path of tyranny.

[skupaemauto]

[QUOTE=candycane3482;475483]

Kind of yeah, we absolutely had to take down the USSR at the end of the Cold War and the easiest means for them to do that was to see them bankrupt themselves in Afghanistan. Guess who the Soviets were up against in Afghanistan? It wasn't American soldiers, but we supported the local resistance cells. Now do we want to guess who those were?

No shit dude, I know we helped bin Laden against the Russians. We also helped Saddam against Iran and we've helped a lot of people we view as bad guys now. You never know who your enemy will be tomorrow. But that area of the country has ALWAYS been at war against something. But we didn't make them extremists or fundamentalists. I still don't see how we "declared war" on the Muslim world or where we are "stealing" oil.