[prowsnobswend]

It should not be the job of the government to protect people from their own stupidity.

EDIT: The Marines with the TBIs are obviously excluded from the above statement.

[BoattyGonm]

The closest thing to small business, not necessarily a one-to-one match...

text

1) Simply being "for-profit" doesn't make one a small business, anymore than Walmart is a small business.

2) I don't buy the recruiting argument. If a school is already operating honestly, it would be in no way affected by this new standard. Even with the extreme case of a recruiter slipping onto Lejeune and signing up TBI patients... if he had gone through proper channels (as opposed to slipping into the barracks like a horny Catholic priest), and his school had the facilities and programs to suit TBI patients, he would have been fine. For example, my school offers interpreters for foreign students and the deaf, and offers separate learning programs for special-needs students. A school can recruit whomever they like... as long as they can verify they are equipped to render full services to those people. However, if a school recruits a wounded veteran who can't write his own name or remember what he did five minutes ago, they better show they're actually going to be able to do anything with him, and not just take his money.

A more likely scenario would be a school having to rework its academic program to meet the required standards. They COULD raise tuition to pay for that, problem is if they're Yellow Ribbon raising tuition would discourage civilians from enrolling, and ironically not even apply to the veterans themselves, because that extra tuition money would be waived anyways. But honestly, I have little sympathy for such a school, if they're deliberately peddling a shoddy overpriced program.

3) I agree, I have no doubt there's political motivation, but that's just the reality of the situation.

It should not be the job of the government to protect people from their own stupidity.

The reality is that everyone is stupid. Unless you're a schooled pharmacist, we're stupid about any drugs we're prescribed, or foods we buy at Safeway. Which is why we have the FDA. Unless you're a trained and experienced mechanic, we're stupid about cars (I have no idea what most of the shit under my hood even does. Its magic.), hence cars have safety requirements, such as seat belts and a secure engine block (so it doesn't dislodge and crush the passenger compartment, like in early models). Unless you're a chemist, we're stupid about how much lead is in paint, your kids' toys, etc... the list goes on.

Communism and libertarianism are wrong for the same reason - business and government will crush you if there are no checks and balances.

"Under capitalism, man oppresses man. Under Communism, the opposite is true."

EDIT: The Marines with the TBIs are obviously excluded from the above statement. Understood! But well there's the problem, unless a service member is legally incompetent to make his own financial decisions, there's nothing that can be done about a school that signed him up.

[Stappipsy]

Bobo's done. Even Europe, who once loved him, sees him for what he is.

A liar. A nasty, ignorant idiot who lied about things he thought he could do. Ignorant in the extreme.
He had no idea what the presidency entailed. He was a sophomore senator without a clue. Europe and all of the Arab world sees him as a complete idiot.
He's been a horrible president. I suspect he'll make a decent mayor of Chicago. They love to elect shitballs.

[usatramadolusa]

1) Simply being "for-profit" doesn't make one a small business, anymore than Walmart is a small business.

2) I don't buy the recruiting argument. If a school is already operating honestly, it would be in no way affected by this new standard. Even with the extreme case of a recruiter slipping onto Lejeune and signing up TBI patients... if he had gone through proper channels (as opposed to slipping into the barracks like a horny Catholic priest), and his school had the facilities and programs to suit TBI patients, he would have been fine. For example, my school offers interpreters for foreign students and the deaf, and offers separate learning programs for special-needs students. A school can recruit whomever they like... as long as they can verify they are equipped to render full services to those people. However, if a school recruits a wounded veteran who can't write his own name or remember what he did five minutes ago, they better show they're actually going to be able to do anything with him, and not just take his money.

A more likely scenario would be a school having to rework its academic program to meet the required standards. They COULD raise tuition to pay for that, problem is if they're Yellow Ribbon raising tuition would discourage civilians from enrolling, and ironically not even apply to the veterans themselves, because that extra tuition money would be waived anyways. But honestly, I have little sympathy for such a school, if they're deliberately peddling a shoddy overpriced program.

3) I agree, I have no doubt there's political motivation, but that's just the reality of the situation.

We're kind of getting wrapped around the axle by the small business discussion, I'll claim fault for that. In terms of secondary education you generally won't find too many small business equivalents among the state and national universities, you will find some closer to that mold in the "for profit" variety, Need any further caveats or can we let it go?

The one's who are already compliant will have no issue whatsoever, I'll surrender that in a cold second. The problem with regulations of any variety is they tend to be categorized in terms of level of compliance, 0-100% etc. Many organizations may fall into the range of barely compliant or barely non-compliant (think 89% or 91%) and the differences there may be a factor of thousands or even millions of dollars annually depending on the size of the institution.

The institutions who likely become the least compliant are likely among those whose facilities are geographically located near large military facilities or that rely heavily upon distance learning curricula, that is the type of academic institution most likely to have a large composition of the military demographic in its base student population. Those come in varying sizes and they also vary in their market positioning all across the map.

How they tackle the modified recruiting issue is hugely dependent on the ability of the institution to market to the available demographics in the region, or in the case of distance learning depending the ability of their satellite facilities to do so. That's why government meddling can be dubious towards private institutions, to do so can in effect substantially upset an organization's ability to be competitive in a market because it's effectively telling them who they can sell their wares to and who they cannot. The difference between "predatory business practices" and just "business practices" can be a very gray area when looked at from an external, comprehensive perspective.

Now the core of my concern, the urgency of the "problem" seemingly mandating an "Executive Order" is a huge deal. It's simply not there, I voice my concerns not for why necessarily the proposal is "bad", but why it needs to very thoroughly vetted through the legislative process because there could very easily be unforeseen consequences that make our problems worse rather than better.

We can definitely and authoritatively state this EO will not go far by way of lowering inflated tuition costs in secondary learning institutions, for reasons I've laid out it could very easily move it in the other direction depending how it is executed upon. That's why I think it's crucial to lay out the details, until then we get both the advantages and the disadvantages dropped squarely on our laps because "The President said so".

[jyhugikuhih]

Bobo's done. Even Europe, who once loved him, sees him for what he is.

A liar. A nasty, ignorant idiot who lied about things he thought he could do. Ignorant in the extreme.
He had no idea what the presidency entailed. He was a sophomore senator without a clue.
He's been a horrible president. I suspect he'll make a decent mayor of Chicago. They love to elect shitballs.

[zoppereurvito]

if he had gone through proper channels (as opposed to slipping into the barracks like a horny Catholic priest),

I found this statement offensive.

Most Marines are too old for Catholic Priests (or Penn State assistant coaches)

[ARKLqAZ6]

I found this statement offensive.

Most Marines are too old for Catholic Priests (or Penn State assistant coaches)

Well, its all the same in the dark...

[vulikox]

Whew...now if only we could get them to step in and make it illegal for car dealers to overcharge, credit card companies to have high interest rates, and restaurants not to serve unhealthy food, we'd be set. I like not having to take responsibility for my choices, even if they happen to be stupid.

[TheReallyBest]

Whew...now if only we could get them to step in and make it illegal for car dealers to overcharge, credit card companies to have high interest rates, and restaurants not to serve unhealthy food, we'd be set. I like not having to take responsibility for my choices, even if they happen to be stupid.

So you like people lying to you, and taking your money under false pretenses?

As a veteran, all these systems are in a place to help YOU out, because you did your share, and you deserve it. Don't let the Paul-ites make you go on a guilt trip about your "handouts", cuz they're not "handouts". They're BENEFITS that you EARNED.

[strmini]

So you like people lying to you, and taking your money under false pretenses?

Peolple don't take my money under false pretenses. I do research before getting myself into things that are going to cost me money.
As a veteran, all these systems are in a place to help YOU out, because you did your share, and you deserve it. Don't let the Paul-ites make you go on a guilt trip about your "handouts", cuz they're not "handouts". They're BENEFITS that you EARNED. I don't see this as a benefit. This is the government telling businesses what they have to do for their customers in a free market society.

[BegeMoT]

AJ - sorry, I'll get to you tomorrow or so when I get a chance.

Peolple don't take my money under false pretenses. I do research before getting myself into things that are going to cost me money.

Would you KNOW if you were sold something under false pretenses? When your doctor prescribes you some meds, do you pore over every ingredient that went into it? Do you go to the meat processing plant and personally watch the cows being ground up into your cheeseburger? Do you go to the Indian sweatshop and personnally inspect your child's toys on the assembly line? Standards and regulations exist so you and I as customers can safely purchase day-to-day items without being an *expert* in that field.

I don't see this as a benefit. This is the government telling businesses what they have to do for their customers in a free market society. What they have to do is provide the service they advertised, in the quality they advertised.

The GI Bill exists because integration of veterans into the civilian workforce was deemed important enough to spend taxpayers' dollars on. If a school uses that money, it needs to guarantee that the money is being spent towards that intended use. If I fail a class, I need to reimburse the VA. By the same logic, if the school fails to meet the standards set forth, they should also be held accountable.

[Sukadrukanga]

Would you KNOW if you were sold something under false pretenses? When your doctor prescribes you some meds, do you pore over every ingredient that went into it? Do you go to the meat processing plant and personally watch the cows being ground up into your cheeseburger? Do you go to the Indian sweatshop and personnally inspect your child's toys on the assembly line? Standards and regulations exist so you and I as customers can safely purchase day-to-day items without being an *expert* in that field.

We aren't talking about things like prescribing meds which, if not regulated, could kill you. We are talking about something that costs money. If they swindle me, the only harm is that I'm out that money. There's a huge difference between making sure companies are safe with their products and selling an overpriced item to an idiot.


The GI Bill exists because integration of veterans into the civilian workforce was deemed important enough to spend taxpayers' dollars on. If a school uses that money, it needs to guarantee that the money is being spent towards that intended use. If I fail a class, I need to reimburse the VA. By the same logic, if the school fails to meet the standards set forth, they should also be held accountable. I disagree. The school is held accountable because if they don't provide a good service then they don't get people paying to go to the school. If people continue to go to the school, then it is their own fault. That's why some schools can get away with charging ridiculous prices (more ridiculous than normal) and still get people to attend. Because of the perception of a top quality service they provide. If it's not something that is going to affect someones health or safety, the gov needs to stay out.

[igs00r]

We aren't talking about things like prescribing meds which, if not regulated, could kill you. We are talking about something that costs money. If they swindle me, the only harm is that I'm out that money. There's a huge difference between making sure companies are safe with their products and selling an overpriced item to an idiot.

You're right, we're not talking about meds. We're talking about a service that can cost six figures - oh and incidentally, most student debt isn't forgivable (so its still with you even after bankruptcy). We're not talking about a $10 carwash, we're talking about a pretty crucial economic tool.

So these schools are upset that they'll be held accountable... cry me a river.

I disagree. The school is held accountable because if they don't provide a good service then they don't get people paying to go to the school. If people continue to go to the school, then it is their own fault. That's why some schools can get away with charging ridiculous prices (more ridiculous than normal) and still get people to attend. Because of the perception of a top quality service they provide. If it's not something that is going to affect someones health or safety, the gov needs to stay out. So by that logic a restaurant doesn't need to follow the law, because if they feed their customers crappy food they'll go out of business? The point of regulation is to PREVENT problems caused by shady business practices.

[shiciapsisy]

You're right, we're not talking about meds. We're talking about a service that can cost six figures - oh and incidentally, most student debt isn't forgivable (so its still with you even after bankruptcy). We're not talking about a $10 carwash, we're talking about a pretty crucial economic tool.

So these schools are upset that they'll be held accountable... cry me a river.



So by that logic a restaurant doesn't need to follow the law, because if they feed their customers crappy food they'll go out of business? The point of regulation is to PREVENT problems caused by shady business practices.

As long as it isn't something that is going to impact health (and I'm not talking about fast food, cigarettes, weed, etc, because we know the effects and make the choice to do them anyway) then the government needs to stay out of it.

So the idiot people who thought they were going to go to school and get great jobs earning six figures are out of some money. Cry me a river.

[sirmzereigMix]

As long as it isn't something that is going to impact health (and I'm not talking about fast food, cigarettes, weed, etc, because we know the effects and make the choice to do them anyway) then the government needs to stay out of it.

Well... that's a little arbitrary isn't it? Why just "health"? Where did this distinction come from?

Embezzlement has no effect on "health" either, so I suppose this should be legal?

So the idiot people who thought they were going to go to school and get great jobs earning six figures are out of some money. Cry me a river. That's a separate issue. Like people, corporations must also be held accountable for their actions. Frankly, I'm tired of millionaires whining about "big government", so you have to spend an extra five minutes in the semester to compile the student data (which they gather anyways), and click "send"... big frickin whoop.

[reachmanxx]

You have a problem with English? Perhaps you might prefer Kenyan?

Alright. I got reeled in. Well played character, sir.

[Peptobismol]

Well... that's a little arbitrary isn't it? Why just "health"? Where did this distinction come from?

Embezzlement has no effect on "health" either, so I suppose this should be legal?

The distinction comes because with almost everything, people are making the choice to do something, whether it's to go to college, eat at McDonalds 6 times a day, or smoke a joint. However, with prescribed medication, it's not much of a choice.



That's a separate issue. Like people, corporations must also be held accountable for their actions. Frankly, I'm tired of millionaires whining about "big government", so you have to spend an extra five minutes in the semester to compile the student data (which they gather anyways), and click "send"... big frickin whoop.[/QUOTE]

[Cucoulkrory]

The distinction comes because with almost everything, people are making the choice to do something, whether it's to go to college, eat at McDonalds 6 times a day, or smoke a joint. However, with prescribed medication, it's not much of a choice.



That's a separate issue. Like people, corporations must also be held accountable for their actions. Frankly, I'm tired of millionaires whining about "big government", so you have to spend an extra five minutes in the semester to compile the student data (which they gather anyways), and click "send"... big frickin whoop.

[/QUOTE]

Exactly. So if a person makes the choice to better his education, works hard, gets good grades, etc... but the school makes the CHOICE to not meet standards they were supposed to....

[Flikemommoilt]

Exactly. So if a person makes the choice to better his education, works hard, gets good grades, etc... but the school makes the CHOICE to not meet standards they were supposed to....[/QUOTE]

What standards aren't they meeting if they guy is working hard and getting good grades?

[WUlcN1Rz]

What standards aren't they meeting if they guy is working hard and getting good grades?

I take it you didn't read the article...?