[ImmimiFruff]

I always struggle with that. If the Orthodox Church is the only true Church, why did God allow it to currently comprise just 10% of all Christians? Why did God let 90% of all "nominal" Christians become un-Orthodox.?

[popsicesHoupe]

I'm a little confused by the question. Why, if the Orthodox Church is the true Church, should we expect it to comprise more than 10% of those who claim the name of "Christian" and call Jesus "Lord"?

After all, the Scriptures do not paint a picture of the true faith in Christ as being the majority faith:

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Anyway, it's not like this is a novelty in history. Regarding the time of the Arian controversies, St. Jerome remarked "the world awoke to find itself Arian", and C.S. Lewis described Athanasius' stand against Arianism thusly:

His epitaph is Athanasius contra mundum, "Athanasius against the world." We are proud that our own country has more than once stood against the world. Athanasius did the same. He stood for the Trinitarian doctrine, "whole and undefiled," when it looked as if all the civilised world was slipping back from Christianity into the religion of Arius I don't know what the percentages were back then, but it certainly doesn't sound like the Orthodox Catholic faith was in the majority at the time.

For a huge chunk of human history, faith in God was kept alive primarily in only one family, until the time of Jacob and his sons. Then it was primarily kept by a single nation in the Levant - and for a good chunk of time, by only the southern part of that nation. At the time of Elijah, God Himself said that he had only seven thousand who had not left the faith in Israel - a nation, I believe, which numbered over a million people.

God, apparently, has no problem with His people being outnumbered.

In Christ,
Michael

[biannaruh]

Orthodoxy is God's Truth, not a popularity contest.

[iroxmxinau]

I always struggle with that. If the Orthodox Church is the only true Church, why did God allow it to currently comprise just 10% of all Christians? Why did God let 90% of all "nominal" Christians become un-Orthodox.?

You are asking us why God in His wisdom allowed such a paradox? That might be difficult to answer... Does not Christ suffer on the cross? Does He not tell us to follow Him? Does He not warn us about the straight and narrow path? Does He not straightaway direct us to carry our cross?

First answer me why God sent His Son and then we can try to understand why God allows people to outright reject him.

[_tppga_]

One in ten, eh? Reminds me of the story of the Ten Lepers, only one of whom returned to thank Christ for being healed.

[hotelhyatt]

Orthodoxy is God's Truth, not a popularity contest.

And Truth people often find inconvenient and uncomfortable.

[ButKnillinoi]

Gee, why, indeed, did God let everybody but Noah be "evil" and flood the earth? Why doesn't God just turn us all into robots and make us all believe in Him? Maybe because God doesn't want robots.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain
Herman the Pooh

[cut sifted ephedra sinica]

Why did God let 90% of all "nominal" Christians become un-Orthodox.? Because we're not interested in the truth of Christ especially when it involves personal self sacrifice.

At least that's the teaching of the Orthodox Church!

In the Risen Christ- Fr Raphael

[ImmimiFruff]

Dear all,

Yes, as you pointed out, God in the past also allowed heresies and unfaithfullness the thrive but, as your examples also demonstrated, when the true faith started losing big God intervened in history to turn things around, because God is not indifferent to truth. In the case of Noah, Herman, God sent the flood the killed everybody else!! So God didn't say "Gee, why, indeed everybody but Noah is evil let's just sit and watch". God took very drastic action, out of His love for mankind.

In the case of Arianism, Michael, God sent Athanasius and the other early Fathers, to fight it and in the end the Truth prevailed. So Yes the Truth is not a popularity contest and people use their free will to reject God many times, but when things get really bad God intervenes and God and His truth prevail. To sit back and say "Gee, truth is not popular, so what" is not His answer.

So coming to our times, the percentage of people following God's Truth (as defined by the Orthodox Church anyway) is shrinking. Between 600-1000, Muslims were able ("allowed") to practically eradicate the Orthodox Churches in North Africa and the Middle East. In 1054, the Western and the Eastern Churches split...In 1514, Luther came and we now have 500 Protestant sects. So either God thinks that this is fine, that maybe the "Truth" is also beyond the Orthodox Church or God will soon intervene again. I don't see a third alternative

[Liabmeasez]

As I understand it:

Because we are created in His image, and that means we are free to choose life or death. There's no other way it could be.

In Christ,
Evan

[citicroego]

So either God thinks that this is fine, that maybe the "Truth" is also beyond the Orthodox Church or God will soon intervene again. I don't see a third alternative God allows a lot of things He does not think is fine. Did He think the Fall was fine and all the suffering and death that has come about as a result of this?

We actually have had some very long discussions on this issue of the OC being the one true church and mostly there has been very little clarity and lots of confusion. The most fruitful of these starts about here and goes on for a couple pages. God of course is intervening all the time, and who during the Arian controversy knew how it was going to turn out? After all it took hundreds of years for this issue to settle. Knowing what God thinks or what He is going to do, or trying to interpret history in a spiritual light rather then according to our human logic is beyond me.

Certainly we see something encouraging in our time with the Church Fathers being translated into other languages besides Greek and thus made available to a larger public. We see a high degree of interest in Church history and tradition here in the west. We see even the Orthodox rediscovering their own faith and the faith of their Fathers, not merely as a cultural way of life, but as something universal and spiritual.

This too is where we each as individuals can go as we seek the One Church and try to discover Her in Her reality and fullness. If God has given us here in this time and this place an oppertunity to examine the faith of our Fathers in a way that has not been possible in past generations, let's take advantage of it.

[popsicesHoupe]

In the case of Arianism, Michael, God sent Athanasius and the other early Fathers, to fight it and in the end the Truth prevailed. So Yes the Truth is not a popularity contest and people use their free will to reject God many times, but when things get really bad God intervenes and God and His truth prevail.

And, normally, it prevails just long enough for the next heresy to come along and make a mess again. Besides Arianism, the early Church dealt with Gnosticism, Montanism, Docetism, Manichaeanism, Nestorianism, and several other "-isms", plus iconoclasm and so on, never mind the Great Schism.

In Ephesians, Pauls writes that:

... Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. That is the goal - not numerical superiority, but purity and holiness.

[ImmimiFruff]

1 Timothy 2:3-4: This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Also in John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

God wants all men to be saved. God cares about numbers because He loves each and everyone of us. Jesus sacrificed His life and suffered for all of us, not just for the sake of a "pure" elite. So I humbly believe that part of the goal for Christians is "numerical superiority" so as to save as many as possible, which is why missionary activity is so important

[Liabmeasez]

Dear all,

Yes, as you pointed out, God in the past also allowed heresies and unfaithfullness the thrive but, as your examples also demonstrated, when the true faith started losing big God intervened in history to turn things around, because God is not indifferent to truth. In the case of Noah, Herman, God sent the flood the killed everybody else!! So God didn't say "Gee, why, indeed everybody but Noah is evil let's just sit and watch". God took very drastic action, out of His love for mankind.

In the case of Arianism, Michael, God sent Athanasius and the other early Fathers, to fight it and in the end the Truth prevailed. So Yes the Truth is not a popularity contest and people use their free will to reject God many times, but when things get really bad God intervenes and God and His truth prevail. To sit back and say "Gee, truth is not popular, so what" is not His answer.

So coming to our times, the percentage of people following God's Truth (as defined by the Orthodox Church anyway) is shrinking. Between 600-1000, Muslims were able ("allowed") to practically eradicate the Orthodox Churches in North Africa and the Middle East. In 1054, the Western and the Eastern Churches split...In 1514, Luther came and we now have 500 Protestant sects. So either God thinks that this is fine, that maybe the "Truth" is also beyond the Orthodox Church or God will soon intervene again. I don't see a third alternative

God has never intervened in such a way as to make it impossible for people to deny Him. Once we accept that, we've got to accept either "injustice" of God having created us, knowing that some among us would reject Him, or thank Him for allowing us to become everything by grace that He is by nature, by denying ourselves, taking up the cross, and following His Only-Begotten Son-- Who, incidentally, suffered incalculably more than any of us will ever suffer and promised that those who sought Truth would be persecuted for doing so.

In Christ,
Evan

[ButKnillinoi]

Actually this question is answered quite fully and directly by the Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 11:17-19) Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

[Matajic]

We must remember that the desire to be 'first' - whether this translates to biggest, most dominant, most renowned, most spacious - is something against which Christ Himself warns His followers. And He reminds them, too, that those who follow Him truly 'will have no place to lay their head'.

Arius was defeated; but Arians flourished - and continued to flourish, and flourish even today. The monophysite heresy was combatted, but the Christian community divided on the point ever after. In the face of mounting 'Gnostic' heresy in the early Church, God sent great saints and fathers to combat the problem directly, and they spoke with great clarity and precision and gnosticism was rebuffed properly as heresy; yet Gnosticism flourished still, and still flourishes today.

In the days of Noah, God sent a great deluge that covered the earth and blotted out its wickedness. But only a few pages after this story is told in the sacred Scriptures, we find that of the tower at Senaar: where arrogance and pride had risen to new heights. The flood in Noah's day was not a triumphant victory.

We must not look to such things for images of the Church's response to heresy making it the most numerous, the most popular, the most lively: it often (most often) has not been. It has been persecuted, hunted, abused, defamed, mocked, belittled, tormented. And in every age, in all of this, it remains that 'of which the world is not worthy'.

INXC, Fr Irenei

[glopomcyte]

We have "free choice" to do as we will. That would be my answer.

[iroxmxinau]

1 Timothy 2:3-4: This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

How can it be that an all All-loving God would allow His children to fall away from Him and choose death over life? Is He not omnipotent? Couldn't He if He wished have everyone saved and avoid us altogether the unnecessary experiences of sufferings and difficulties and sadness? The Orthodox answer is that He could have, as there is no limit to God and He transcendes all human understanding.

But perhaps our misunderstanding lies in assuming that such sufferings are indeed unnecessary. Was Christ's death on the cross unnecesarry? We have been revealed the King on a donkey riding into Jerusalem. We have been revealed a crucified savior as the Way to everlasting life. If we are to call ourselves disciples of Christ, than we must believe Him when He tells us that satan is the prince of this world and that in this world we will be persecuted and ridiculed and mocked. Who have been persecuted and have endured throughout the ages, holding fast to the teachings of Christ? Where is His Church which is His Body within this world? Lets clear up misunderstandings lest we follow the masses and wander down the broad gates which leads to perdition.

The Church is the salt of the earth as He taught on the Sermon on the Mount. Like tiny grains of salt which when applied to food serves to preserve it and protect it from the forces of corruption all around. And though in numbers much less in amount and weight compared to the food it is applied to, it will act to protect the entire body of food it is in contact with.

Similarly, the saints, though less in numbers, preserve His Body (which is the Church). Through their prayers and intercessions, the Church endures by the Grace of God.

Unfortunately, as the salt becomes less and less available and in smaller and smaller amounts, then corruption begins to gain ground and putrefaction occurs. And while the early undivided Church flourished in those centuries of martyrs and holy men and women, it has since been rejected and torn asunder and the number of saints have decreased. St. John tells us that the Final Day of Judgment will come after the great falling away (apostasy) at which time the corruptible forces of satan would be just about to overcome the gates of hell and threaten to destroy all of creation. I speculate that at that time, the Church in terms of numbers will be in its least relative amount in all history, less than 10% if we choose that number.

Also in John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." Jesus did draw all men to Himself when He rose from the dead and destroyed death. His resurrection affected all men ever born, all the way back to Adam.

God wants all men to be saved. God cares about numbers because He loves each and everyone of us. Jesus sacrificed His life and suffered for all of us, not just for the sake of a "pure" elite. So I humbly believe that part of the goal for Christians is "numerical superiority" so as to save as many as possible, which is why missionary activity is so important I humbly believe you are in error if you believe that numerical amounts trump purity and righteousness. This is not attested to historically nor scripturally. In fact it is clearly stated by Christ that few will find the kingdom of God. Not most, not many, not some. Few. If this doesn't contradict your statement, I don't know what else to say.

[citicroego]

I was reading this, this morning during my devotional time and thought it might be appropo for this thread.

II Tim 4:3-8 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing."

[ImmimiFruff]

Dear Antoni,

Mere mortals like you and me can not know how many will be saved. A Greek priest once told me that according to the "Book of Revelation" one-third will be saved. On the other hand, many theologians even in traditional days interpretted the "one-third of stars falling" in Revelations optimistically, to mean that two-thirds are saved. Others would interpret the "narrow gate" statements and such to mean that few are saved.

Having said that, although we can not know how many will be saved we do know that God desires all to be saved (do you agree with that?). So as Christians we have a responsibility to try to save as many of the "lost sheep" as possible so "there's joy in heaven". That's what I mean by saying that "numbers matter". I mean that we shouldn't just sit on our lap congratulate ourselves and say "Naaah, the world doesn't deserve the Church and the Truth anyway".

Like the Apostles, with a great sense of urgency, we should try to spread the Truth everywhere because this is what Jesus asked us to do in Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". That's why I care about numbers, not in a sense to say my Religion is the biggest and most popular, but to ask my self is my Religion (who holds the Truth) doing everything possible to convert as many people as possible? Because this is what Jesus asked us to do. In the end how many will be saved only God knows...all we can do is try to help Him save as many as possible.

One final note, I do believe that many Protestant sects are in serious heresy, but I do admire their missionary zeal