[biannaruh]

For me the real sinners are those who do not feed the hungry, do not give water to the thirsty, do not welcome strangers, do not clothe the naked and do not visit the ill and those in prison (as per Matthew 25). So in the end we need to look at someone in his/her totallity and prioritize those attributes that Jesus did (i.e., love for God and love for neighbor). My dear Angelos, Orthodoxy is not a system of "social justice". Social justice, in the modern sense, is useful, but does not define a faith, let alone define the Orthodox faith. The Orthodox faith means not "what can God do for me", but, rather, "what can I do to get closer to God?" (to paraphrase JFK)

[ImmimiFruff]

Dear Olga,

As St. Paul says in Galatians. 5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love" Also in 1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

Also according to James (1:27) "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and James 2:14-17: " What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."


So Olga, without love for neighbor, "faith" does not count. So faith without "social justice" is dead. I agree that "social justice" without faith is not enough either, because we need love for both God and neighbor, but the examples I was bringing were those of faithful, but not-Orthodox, Christians who were inspired to engage in "social justice" through their love for Christ.

[ImmimiFruff]

Dear Father Irenaeus,

The bigger point is whether this heterodox denominations (and their ministers) inspire their disciples to love Jesus and to do God's work on earth. I have met many heterodox Christians who are very involved in good works not because of some secular, political motive but because they were inspired by their love for Jesus. If it weren't for these heterodox denominations these people, who have no access to Orthodoxy anyway, would have been spiritually apathetic.

So that goes at the heart of my argument that although far from perfect the world is better off having all these "exuberant Christians and their heterodox denominations" in the US, rather than these apathetic atheists who now form the large majority of Europe (including in Orthodox countries like Russia and Greece).

Father, I do believe that given the opportunity someone is better off being a committed Orthodox than a committed heterodox, but in reality Orthodoxy has not been able, for reasons that are beyond the scope of this discussion, to reach the daily lives of the majority of the people even in countries where it has a practical monopoly (at least that's what people respond in Gallup polls). So as the lesser of two imperfect solutions, I do believe that a believer in our Lord Jesus (even if heterodox) pleases God more than an atheist and there lies the value of heterodox denominations who bring the message of our Lord to the people

[addifttiest]

Dear Angelos,

No one here is directly denying that love for our neighbor is not important, nor are they saying that good works are not a sign of faith, though Catholics are the believers that "faith and works" are what gets you into heaven.

But we, as Orthodox, rely on what the Gospel tells us:

"I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message [the message of the Apostles, Apostolic succesion/teaching], that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." --John 17:20-24

There can only be ONE teaching, not several teachings or actions. The actions and teachings must be based upon the Apostles. Therefore, faith must be carried out by love of God and neighbor through the ONE teachings of Jesus Christ and His Apostles.

[popsicesHoupe]

Father, I do believe that given the opportunity someone is better off being a committed Orthodox than a committed heterodox, but in reality Orthodoxy has not been able, for reasons that are beyond the scope of this discussion, to reach the daily lives of the majority of the people even in countries where it has a practical monopoly (at least that's what people respond in Gallup polls). So as the lesser of two imperfect solutions, I do believe that a believer in our Lord Jesus (even if heterodox) pleases God more than an atheist and there lies the value of heterodox denominations who bring the message of our Lord to the people

We actually ran 'round and 'round that particular concept in the "Russia and Evangelical Missionaries" thread, especially in the latter parts of the discussion. You might want to blip over and check that thread out (turn up the A.C. first; I think it got a little hot at times).

There may have been another thread where we beat on that topic, but if so I can't remember it offhand.

[vipBrooriErok]

It's not really possible to justify that one's particular belief is right based on the following one's belief has. After all, most of the world is not even Christian. But there are people who seek after and serve Christ without being aware of it themselves. God is the God of all people, and desires the salvation of every soul. He created each person and seeks to save each one in ways which are beyond our understanding. He is able to use everything to His purpose in spite of whatever might oppose it. For example, in spite of being a member of a heterodox confession of faith, people of good will are able to lead honest lives and seek after God. Have they reached Him yet? No. Have all the Orthodox reached God yet? No, sadly. The Orthodox have the advantage of the holy sacarments and pure confession of faith. But the non-Orthodox still have the loving will of God which seeks to save them. The thriving of heresies, like the spread of evil, is not God's intent. But He works still, in spite of it, often turning the evil of demons and men into good.

In the mention of good works, one should note that, just because someone feeds a hungry person does not mean that he has done good absolutely. If the intention is impure, a hungry man is fed, but what reward is there for him that fed him? He may have already received it, as the Lord said. Part of the underlying intention behind good works is faith. Just as faith without works is dead, so also are works without faith. One needs right faith and right behavior. One without the other, particularly if this is a willful omission, will not be beneficial.

[immoceefe]

If Orthodoxy represents 10% of all Christian believers, then 10% of Orthodox really believe and live it and are transformed by this. So the "problem" such as it is, is not just an Orthodox vs. Heterodox problem. If it were more like 90% of the Orthodox living a truly Christian life, the other percentages would likely be reversed.

[Jjfotqse]

Orthodoxy is like a small community chipping away at the mountains that block their path. We all have similar goals spiritually and uniform doctrine. I was never into Instituted religion because it forms barriers and hierarchies that Christ would not have wanted. The person who doesn't want to lead would be made leader, and the one who wants to lead the most should be last. Our church doesn't have a task to convert people because we don't want to be the leader. Yet in all the history of mankind since Christ, Orthodoxy is leading in many ways. When people were calling themselves Christians and believed in totally random things, we gave the world the Nicene Creed. In it was the definition of our faith. And the other followed. We then disputed what was the best way to worship Christ and we then called ourselves Orthodox. Ortho-doxia correct worship of God. ANd we are as aresult ahead of the others who call themselves by many names but have yet to understand the new wave of worshipping God correctly. Shall we sacrifice doves over an alter, bang our heads on a wall and face Mecca, kneel with our foreheads touching the ground, shall we pray for the destruction of others as some do? No! we worship God correctly.

So you see the ones that didn't want to lead and be first, are infact in the lead.

[immoceefe]

I think the point is that this is probably a common feeling; when my faith is weak, I feel this way too sometimes. Also, that the Church acknowledges this by addressing it in some many ways, as has been referenced above. Which means you are not alone if you have these feelings, which are really feelings of fear, doubt and insecurity planted there by the demons.

[tussinelde]

I think God allows every person their free will. It speaks to His integrity. A person can also be led out of heresy, so there is that hope.