[idobestbuyonlinepp]

I agree, Alice. Also, while you might not be able to judge from one or two visits whether a church has grace (how does one judge that, anyway?), surely 'a feeling of grace' is different - to me, it suggests a hopeful, peaceful, grateful sensation. It's perfectly valid to say you walked into a building and straightaway felt a sensation of grace, and if that doesn't happen any more in many Russian churches, it's sad.

I wondered what was meant by this statement:

'Historically speaking, a society which is corrupt from top to bottom, is not typically one that puts much of a priority in maintaining its Churches.'

Which societies would you consider corrupt or uncorrupt? I only ask because here in the west, many of the most beautiful Cathedrals that took huge amounts of labour, expense and dedication to build, were built under regimes of dubious virtue.

[arerrurrY]

I do not know how grace can be measured. And having been in Orthodox churches all over the place, from churches in the post-communist era, which were so empty and destroyed, to churches which are so beautifully decorated in other places, I have experienced all the range of beautiful emotions that only a church can give. I never ever felt that there was no grace in a church... but if there are instances where grace can not be felt then we should look into ourselves. I think what happens is twofold. The church as a place being/feeling holy because of the presence of the Holy Spirit (the presence of angels, saints, relics, the sacraments and prayers said there), and of course the church as a place where the people attract the grace of God with their manner of life and worship. At the end of the world grace will leave the churches because of the people, and the elected will be hiding and worshiping in caves and mountains. Therefore if we feel a lack of grace now we must introspect because it is us who with our lives can collect angels around us, or God forbid can collect the evil ones. However I still do not believe that some Orthodox churches today lack grace, since God knows we are all sinners and He still provides in His infinite mercy. However I have read from a Russian Mother who said during communism that God took the grace from Russia as a land, but that He will give it back to Russia. And I think that even when we read such sayings still we can't imagne this grace retrival in an absolute manner, because if we read lives of people and saints who suffered during communism we can clearly see the grace God bestowed to these holy people and how the grace enveloped those around them and improved their spiritual situation. I (not that my opinion matters much) still beleive that even in the middle of a satanic chaos, God is still there waiting for His children to seek Him, like in the story of Abraham when he lived still in the pagan land of his ancestors and while going out to purchase an animal for sacrificing it to the idols as ordered by his father, Abraham started thinking about the possibility of these idols being just idols and in this moment God was there and spoke to him and told him to leave his home and follow Him.

[mensforyouthis]

Alice and Liz articulated a point which I meant but did not make clear yet which is worth emphasising: that is the difference between grace and a feeling of grace. Of course there is grace in the Russian Orthodox Church. But I'm sure all of us, including, if I may so presume, Nina, react in varying ways to certain churches and to the services in them. Sometimes we are moved and sometimes we are not. Yes, we should look at ourselves as Nina says, but we alone are not responsible for our reactions.

In responding to Brendan's posts I would by no means want to paint a wholly negative picture of the Church in Russia. I have had many wonderful times in churches and monasteries there and there is much that I admire about the ROC. At the same time, one must be realistic. Yes, there are miraculous things happening there, including in our own parish church in Moscow. If you asks Russians why the rich throw so much money at churches and monasteries, they will tell that it is more from fear than anything. Fear of hell is a dominating factor in the mind of many Russian Orthodox Christians. A rich man feels he can help himself by giving lots of money to the church and having his name commemorated in liturgies for years. I cannot agree with Brendan that it is no longer the case that corrupt business men and officials have the influence they did in the 90s. I have personal knowledge about this. The rich and powerful act as they wish and the government seems either unable or unwilling effectively to curb this. As to the official and formal character of the ROC, I am told that it was like that before 1917. It is certainly true, though, that Church and State do co-operate in many ways. Brendan gives us a very telling expression: 'a population unaccustomed to living without fear'. Russians are always afraid of something or someone. Hell, rulers, officials and authority of any kind, gangsters, their own police. Fear goes hand in hand with suspicion. It also causes people to be very individuated. Priests in Russia will tell people to look after their own souls and the salvation of others is not their business. Consequently, there's much faith but little evidence of charity. Everyone should look after himself. The common general attitude is, 'it's your problem'. A truly Orthodox society would overflow with love, charity and fellowship. But then, I don't suppose such a society exists anywhere.

[VYholden]

Yes, Andreas, we understand each other.

It also causes people to be very individuated. Priests in Russia will tell people to look after their own souls and the salvation of others is not their business. Consequently, there's much faith but little evidence of charity. Everyone should look after himself. The common general attitude is, 'it's your problem'. A truly Orthodox society would overflow with love, charity and fellowship. The excellent younger priest at the church I frequent in Athens has a series of sermons after every year's Paraclisis to the Theotokos during the Dormition fast. His closing words yesterday had to do with many of the problems which plague Greece. Though, as a part time expat, I feel somewhat removed from those particular issues (not counting my endless frustration about why the Greeks are not society driven as Americans are, but that is another story which probably has to do with the personality of different cultures), but his words of wisdom were worth noting.

He said that many people say that the other person should change, or the this or that should change, but that they never think to change themselves as individuals...and if confronted with that, they say 'I will change this or that, when the other does'. However, as he said, nothing will ever get better with that mentality. As Christians we should always strive to do and be better.... So, Greece and Russia have something in common...they are both Orthodox societies, but certainly not truly Orthodox societies, because as you so aptly pondered:

But then, I don't suppose such a society exists anywhere. Regards,
Alice

[VYholden]

(not counting my endless frustration about why the Greeks are not society driven as Americans are I meant to write: my endless frustration about why the Greeks are not *community* driven as Americans are)

(I always forget that when one posts to this particular forum that one cannot go back and edit because it goes to moderation immediately)

[immoceefe]

Priests in Russia will tell people to look after their own souls and the salvation of others is not their business. Consequently, there's much faith but little evidence of charity. Everyone should look after himself. The common general attitude is, 'it's your problem'. I think the validity of this message depends much on the context. It could be a healthy sign that the Church in Russia is telling people to stop trying to control other people's lives and focus on your own well being.

[mensforyouthis]

I think the validity of this message depends much on the context. It could be a healthy sign that the Church in Russia is telling people to stop trying to control other people's lives and focus on your own well being.

A charitable view but not one borne out in my experience and wife's family's experience.