[BliliBoopsy]

Study finds more U.S. Orthodox Christian converts




By Nicole Neroulias, Religion News Service

A new study of Orthodox Christians in America has found a larger-than-expected number of converts, mostly from Roman Catholic and evangelical Protestant backgrounds.

The report, released by the Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute in Berkeley, Calif., surveyed 1,000 members of Greek Orthodox or Orthodox Church in America congregations, which represent about 60% of America's estimated 1.2 million Orthodox Christians.
Although Orthodox churches were historically immigrant communities, the study found that nine out of 10 parishioners are now American-born. Thousands of members had converted to the faith as adults: 29% of Greek Orthodox are converts, as are 51% of the OCA.

"I would not have expected this many," said Alexei Krindatch, the Orthodox Institute's research director. "My sense was that in Greek Orthodox, it would be around 15%, and OCA maybe one-third."
The study also found unexpectedly high numbers of converts among clergy — 56% in the OCA, 14% in the Greek Orthodox church. In both cases, the higher OCA numbers reflect that group's use of English in its worship services, he added.

These findings could mean that Orthodox churches are growing in America, assuming there aren't equal or greater numbers of Orthodox Christians leaving for other faiths; researchers won't know until they conduct a 2010 membership census. The findings, however, indicate that other Christians are increasingly seeking a more traditional worship experience, Krindatch said.

"In the case of Roman Catholics, those are mainly people who are not quite happy with the reforms of the Second Vatican Council; they are looking for the Catholic Church as it used to be in the past," he said. "In the case of evangelical Christians, those are people who have very strong personal beliefs, they know the Bible very well, they are frequent churchgoers, and eventually they want to join an established church with deep, historical roots."

Compared to a 2005 study of American Catholics, the survey found more Orthodox Christians responding that they could not imagine belonging to another faith group, and fewer agreeing that how a person lives is more important than his or her religious affiliation.
"In all possible measures, belonging to a church is more important to Orthodox than Catholics," Krindatch said.

The study's other findings showed a majority of Orthodox Christians would support allowing married bishops, but not female priests. They also want their clergy to work with their Catholic and Protestant counterparts to coordinate a common date for Easter, which typically falls several weeks later for the Orthodox due to their use of an older liturgical calendar.

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[Enjknsua]

[CENTER]
The study's other findings showed a majority of Orthodox Christians would support allowing married bishops, but not female priests. They also want their clergy to work with their Catholic and Protestant counterparts to coordinate a common date for Easter, which typically falls several weeks later for the Orthodox due to their use of an older liturgical calendar.

This is the danger of mass conversions. They want this or that but don't necessarily want what the Chruch wants. Why not let the RC and PC change their Easter dates?

[12Cickprior]

This is the danger of mass conversions. They want this or that but don't necessarily want what the Chruch wants. Why not let the RC and PC change their Easter dates?

And second of all, who cares what Protestants and Catholics do? We don't care when Mormons celebrate their holidays, so why should we with other religious groups? We are Orthodox, we have our own Tradition, and there is no need to change it for the sake of other religions! It sounds like a lot of people haven't been catechized properly on the traditions of the Church, if this survey is correct.

[Acciblyfluila]

Why not let the RC and PC change their Easter dates?

couldn't that be what "They also want their clergy to work with their Catholic and Protestant counterparts to coordinate a common date for Easter" means?

[metropropuskruww]

And second of all, who cares what Protestants and Catholics do? We don't care when Mormons celebrate their holidays, so why should we with other religious groups? We are Orthodox, we have our own Tradition, and there is no need to change it for the sake of other religions! It sounds like a lot of people haven't been catechized properly on the traditions of the Church, if this survey is correct.

Dear Andrew,

On a spiritual level, I think that many Orthodox care because, just as many of us do for Christmas, we also want to feel Christian love, peace, brotherhood, solidarity and unity with our brethren in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ for the great feast of Pascha, despite the differences which schisms which have wrought upon us through history. It is good to dwell in unity, even if that unity only comes through celebrating our common Lord's birth and resurrection. It is also good to show a common face in Christ to the non-Orthodox world of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, etc. With so many Christians suffering persecutions, martyrdoms, exiles, and violence at the hands of members of these religions in countries where they are a minority, it is perhaps the least we can do to show solidarity...

On a practical level, many Orthodox Christians in the U.S. experience the American reality of having close family members belonging to another faith tradition. These close family members could be parents, children, and/or in-laws. Holidays are very close to families, and families are the precious foundation of God's plan for a civilized society.

Just some humble thoughts...

In Christ,
Alice

[amberamuletuk]

And second of all, who cares what Protestants and Catholics do? We don't care when Mormons celebrate their holidays, so why should we with other religious groups? We are Orthodox, we have our own Tradition, and there is no need to change it for the sake of other religions!

My sentiments exactly. =) But part of the reason for wanting things to co-ordinate could be the fact that most converts still have a family and friends who are protestant (or RC) and they cannot celebrate together anymore... because, we are usually in the middle of a fast, when others are busy feasting.

Was it last year? When our Pascha and their Easter, turned out to be the same? I thought I'd hate it, because I hate all the commercializing stuff that goes along with any holiday. But on Sunday, driving through town to get to church, it was such a glorious feeling to see every single store closed for Easter! I've never felt such deep peacefulness, in the whole town all at one time.

So, if PC and RC can change their dates and co-ordinate with us, the whole place, including non-Christians, will get some kind of blessing.

couldn't that be what "They also want their clergy to work with their Catholic and Protestant counterparts to coordinate a common date for Easter" means?

Not necessarily. Whenever I've encountered any kind of 'working together' for a 'common' anything, there's this underlying expectation that everyone will let go of their own strong ideas at least a little bit and accept a little bit of someone else's. And, if I, as an Orthodox, let go of any of my Traditions for the sole reason of accepting a bit of another's, I have just broken faith with my own. So, the only talk possible, would be, if PC and RC want to inform the OC that they'd like to celebrate on the same dates that we do. Not that it matters to us, because it still wouldn't make a difference to us, when they celebrate. *

Our celebrations do not happen on a particular date. We begin weeks and weeks earlier, with the fasts, and for Pascha, we begin even before the fast. And then, there's all the services, that are specific to that period of fasting, to prepare us for the feast. So, even if PC and RC set aside the same dates as ours for Easter and Christmas, we still won't be celebrating together.

I hope this isn't offensive. It is probably not politically correct to be faithful to your own Church. But this isn't a political issue.

In Christ,
Mary.

*Purely my sentiments. I'm not in charge of public relations, and for a good reason. =)

[biannaruh]

The irony about the differing dates for Easter is that all five Patriarchates agreed to the formula decided at the First Ecumenical Council. For whatever reason, Rome continued using a different formula which did not take into account the Jewish Passover date. Come the Reformation, the churches which split off from Rome retained this formula.

It may be possible to convince the Roman Catholic church to revert to the Orthodox reckoning for Easter. But the chances of all the other post-Reformation churches and groups following suit seem very slim indeed.

[immoceefe]

I don't know where these converts in the Greek Church are. Does anyone know? In the West? It is certainly nothing approaching 29% in all of the Greek parishes I have been to, and I have attended Greek services in many parts of the country.

As for converts wanting more close relationships with other non-Orthodox churches, I find that frankly astounding. What kind of leading questions did they ask in the polling? Converts typically do not want much if anything to do with the church they left behind. If I found out my priests were consorting with Episcopalians and other such sinners I would want to have him horsewhipped.

As for mass conversions, well, this is a misnomer. The only "mass" conversions I am aware of was the EOC, and that was, what, 25 years ago? If there is any problem it is in the catechesis of converts. It perhaps needs to be a little more rigorous. But it is far more rigorous in any case than anything that other non-Orthodox churches require.

The big problem in the Greek Church is that the Greeks are very familiar with the outward forms but tend for the most part to be pretty uninformed and unformed about the underlying stuff.

But don't get me started on Christian formation. The best catechesis would be an intensive one-year practicum on the Ladder of Divine Ascent. But priests tend to focus on the history of the Church and its dogma and just assume that that is what makes one Orthodox. Since that's mostly the kind of training they get.

[metropropuskruww]

I am a cradle Greek Orthodox in the north east. Please know that many, if not most, marriages in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese are between Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholics. The Roman Catholics generally convert. Therefore, I might assume that most of our converts are through marriage.

I would think, as a compassionate person, one would then acknowledge the desire that our former Roman Catholic brethren have to celebrate holidays with their precious families.

The Greek Orthodox have generally had a pretty good relationship with the Roman Catholics in this country and do not usually harbor anomosity towards our estranged and seperated brethren in Christ Jesus. The only one that truly delights in anomosity and anger between conservative and apostolic Christians is the evil one. I very much doubt that our Lord, who is pure love, could possibly be happy to see his children feel like this for one another.

Agape,
Alice

[popsicesHoupe]

I'm a little concerned that the calculation of the date of Easter/Pascha seems to be being treated almost as an article of faith. St. Athanasius spoke of the matter thusly:

"They [i.e., the Council of Nice] wrote concerning Easter, 'It seemed good' as follows: for it did then seem good, that there should be a general compliance; but about the faith they wrote not 'It seemed good,' but 'Thus believes the Catholic Church'; and thereupon they confessed how the faith lay, in order to shew that their sentiments were not novel, but apostolic." From what I've read, before I Nicea there was divergence of practice, with some celebrating Easter on Nisan 14 (Passover), and others on the Sunday following this day. The Ecclesiastical History of Sozomen notes how this was dealt with at the time:

We have now described the various usages that prevailed in the celebration of the Passover. It appears to me that Victor, bishop of Rome, and Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, came to a very wise decision on the controversy that had arisen between them. For as the bishops of the West did not deem it necessary to dishonor the tradition handed down to them by Peter and by Paul, and as, on the other hand, the Asiatic bishops persisted in following the rules laid down by John the evangelist, they unanimously agreed to continue in the observance of the festival according to their respective customs, without separation from communion with each other. They faithfully and justly assumed, that those who accorded in the essentials of worship ought not to separate from one another on account of customs. I have seen no evidence that I Nicea came up with a formula for calculating the date of Easter; the letter regarding the keeping of Easter which was sent from the Emperor to those not attending the council, makes no mention of a formula but only of the decision that all should celebrate on the same day; I saw several notes that the date of Easter would be announced by various councils, but with no reference as to how the date would be determined. The matter of importance seems to be that the same date was observed by all, not how the date was calculated.

In St. Athanasius' Paschal Letters is mention of a plan being agreed upon at the Council of Sardica, which would unite the Roman and Alexandrian celebrations for 50 years, but it did not hold. In one case the Alexandrians yielded to the Romans; in another they appear to have jointly agreed to diverge from the planned date; and in others they followed their own dates. In the end, the divergence was not overcome.

I fear that part of the reason for that continuing divergence was likely politics - that the See whose calculation was followed could make from that a claim of preeminence which the other did not wish to appear to endorse. And unfortunately, I fear that the divergence between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox dates will continue indefinitely, for the same reason.

I do not see Protestants changing wholesale to the Orthodox date, not because of any particular attachment to the Roman calculation, but because a system which will (if the Lord tarries that long) eventually have Pascha creeping out of Spring, through Summer and into Fall, would strike them as irrational.

In Christ,
Michael

[12Dvop4I]

Thank you for posting the link to this article! Aside from the critical attention to the requests of new converts, I am elated to know of the growing Orthodox Church in America!

[soyclocky]

I am a convert to Orthodoxy, and chose to do so in a Greek Orthodox Parish. I would estimate that at least 40% of those who attend Liturgy on Sunday in our parish are converts. At Vespers, it it not unusaul for 100% of those in attendance to be converts, including our priest. Our cradle brethren come join us in great numbers on Feast Days, and we have quite the mixture of native Greeks, Arabs, Russians, Romanians and Serbs. Such is our experience in the American West.

One unexpected pleasure of my conversion was the snatching of Easter away from a mythical bunny. My children have adapted quite well to having Pascha at a time uniquely our own. The first years seemed odd, but now, it is of no consequence.

[metropropuskruww]

One unexpected pleasure of my conversion was the snatching of Easter away from a mythical bunny. My children have adapted quite well to having Pascha at a time uniquely our own. The first years seemed odd, but now, it is of no consequence.

Dear Duane,

Surely, even a common date would never take away the intensely spiritual, religious, symbolic and beautiful Paschal experience which is unique to Orthodoxy...

And as far as the Easter Bunny, well he still has his (very secondary) place for us Greek Orthodox, especially when he comes in the form of a yummy chocolate mold!! One priest I know distributes them to the children together with the red Easter eggs after the Resurrection service and at the next day's service...(ofcourse, the adults are always jealous!)

Growing up, my Greek Orthodox cousins and I always looked for the Bunny's Easter basket visit on Easter morning...it *is* a feasting holy day, after all, so together with the traditional 'tsoureki' sweet bread and derigeur lamb dinner, we also had our candy and chocolate for dessert.

I DO think, however, that it is a sad shame and a travesty, that Mr. Bunny (along with Easter brunch and the hunt for eggs) is all that some Christian faiths know and experience for Easter.

In Christ,
Alice

[soyclocky]

Dear Alice,

The chocolate variety of bunny is most delicious, and a welcome addition to the Easter Basket. I guess what I was trying to communicate was our joy at having the "intensely spiritual, religious, symbolic and beautiful Paschal experience which is unique to Orthodoxy", minus the commercial aspect that so commonly surrounds the Western date.

I ask forgivness if my words caused anyone offense.

This past Pascha, our family had a special shopping trip to prepare our baskets. My dear wife ~ who is not an Orthodox Christian ~ was kind enough to squirrle away some chocolate bunnies [please pardon the rodent pun] to be placed in the baskets with our tsoureki, cheeses and assorted meats. What a delight it was to place the baskets at the front of the Church Temple for blessing, them sharing them with our friends at 2am.

As a child, I longed for Christmas morning; as an adult Orthodox Christian, I long for the Paschal Feast!

[metropropuskruww]

Dear Alice,

The chocolate variety of bunny is most delicious, and a welcome addition to the Easter Basket.

Now, this is good news! I cannot trust a person who does not like chocolate!


As a child, I longed for Christmas morning; as an adult Orthodox Christian, I long for the Paschal Feast! WOW!!....That is so beautifully and poetically stated, dear brother in Christ....

I shall try to remember to quote you on that...

May God bless you,
Alice

[Freeptube]

I would think, as a compassionate person, one would then acknowledge the desire that our former Roman Catholic brethren have to celebrate holidays with their precious families.
Alice

Are you saying that my husband who nominally is RC, but attends the Orthodox Church, should celebrate two Easters? One with me Orthodox (which is the case) and one with his family?

[metropropuskruww]

Are you saying that my husband who nominally is RC, but attends the Orthodox Church, should celebrate two Easters? One with me Orthodox (which is the case) and one with his family?

Dearest Nina,

Oh dear, I am sorry that I made you upset, my sweet sister in Christ...

What I meant was that just like mixed faith families all celebrate the Christmas day feast together (though not services), it would be nice to celebrate the day together, especially when there are small children involved. With many of my friends, they are celebrating two feasts, which I suppose is not so bad if you think of having two great home cooked meals!

On the other hand, some of my mixed faith friends find it makes life easier because they don't have to decide which set of parents to go to for this particular celebration...they can go to both on the different days! (except when the dates fall together).

This was not intended to mean *anything about religious services*.

For instance, I remember this situation growing up....one of my mother's sisters became Anglican and her children were also Anglican. My grandmother and grandfather and the rest of the large family were Greek Orthodox. It was very nice on Christmas for all the cousins to gather at yiayia and papou's house together, despite our faith traditions being different. However, when Pascha came around, often they were not able to make it for 'Greek Easter' because they had already had their Easter so it became a Sunday feast that often eliminated one segment of the family.

I simply wanted to say that it would be nice for all Christians to celebrate the 'day' together...

Fondly,
In Christ our Lord,
Alice

[Freeptube]

Dearest Nina,

Oh dear, I am sorry that I made you upset, my sweet sister in Christ...

What I meant was that just like mixed faith families all celebrate the Christmas day feast together (though not services), it would be nice to celebrate the day together, especially when there are small children involved. With many of my friends, they are celebrating two feasts, which I suppose is not so bad if you think of having two great home cooked meals!

On the other hand, some of my mixed faith friends find it makes life easier because they don't have to decide which set of parents to go to for this particular celebration...they can go to both on the different days! (except when the dates fall together).

This was not intended to mean *anything about religious services*.

For instance, I remember this situation growing up....one of my mother's sisters became Anglican and her children were also Anglican. My grandmother and grandfather and the rest of the large family were Greek Orthodox. It was very nice on Christmas for all the cousins to gather at yiayia and papou's house together, despite our faith traditions being different. However, when Pascha came around, often they were not able to make it for 'Greek Easter' because they had already had their Easter so it became a Sunday feast that often eliminated one segment of the family.

I simply wanted to say that it would be nice for all Christians to celebrate the 'day' together...

Fondly,
In Christ our Lord,
Alice

I have no idea where you see that I am upset, cause I am not. I am just interested to learn what you meant. Since my sil's father is nominal Muslim, although he celebrates his religious feasts. And my brother does not go to celebrate their feasts with them. They are family, no? And it does not make any family better because they are Christian Protestant, or Muslim. As you say the party is a party and time to get together. But thank God there are 365 days in a year when we can get together and have home cooked meals. And sometime we have to choose between family and Christ. That's how it is and that's what Christ said: "He who loves his mother, father... more than Me is not worthy for Me" - please excuse the paraphrasing. Also we see this in the case of our martyrs when they did not follow the traditions and gatherings of their pagan families. They chose and chose well. I am not saying pagans are equal to Christians (although they are people afterall and we are ordered to love all people - and the martyrs loved their families but they had their loyalty to Christ), but since you present the case in a family angle I think that family is family even if they are atheists.

[Enjknsua]

If I have not love, I am a clanging cymbol. I think we need to keep in mind we are to love others as Christ loved the church. How can we show our love if we turn our backs on our families on "their" holy day? I am NOT suggesting we violate our fasting rules or other churchly obligations, but I agree with Alice, we can better share our faith with family by showing our love through Christ.

How can we possibly show love if we constantly say, I can't participate with you because I am Orthodox or because I am fasting? Did not Jesus say to wash you face and put oil on your head to not look as if you are fasting as do the pharisees? What better way to show our discipleship than to love our families yet maintain our restrictions? I think we losr our families respect (so to speak) if we break with our customs to share in theirs. What value is our faith if we do not stand up for it?

Paul

[metropropuskruww]

I withdraw from this thread and ask forgiveness if my words and experiences (both personal ones and community ones) in the Greek Orthodox church communities I have been a part of for many years have offended any one.

However, I must add that I have heard Greek Orthodox bishops and priests address the need (I believe there have been official meetings with other Christian groups on this) for a common Paschal date to witness Christ to the world.

Humbly,
Alice