[Ygxejxox]

I saw this headline on the BBC web site, but was unable to access the report. Does anybody know what this is about?

[redDoodia]

"Greece's rebel monks in mountain stand-off" (just incase the article doesn't load I've copied it into this post below)

I think this is what you mean, but it's from 2003 so is not the most up to date.

Does anyone know the current situation with Esphigmenou is? Has there been any resolution?

With love in Christ

Alex

------------

Greece's rebel monks in mountain stand-off

By Richard Galpin
BBC correspondent in Athens

More than 100 Greek Orthodox Christian monks are refusing to leave their monastery in north-eastern Greece despite being ordered out by the authorities after accusing the patriarch, their spiritual leader, of heresy.
The deadline for moving out expired on Tuesday.

The rebel monks are based at the Esphigmenou Monastery on Mount Athos, known as the Holy Mountain.

They say their communications and food supplies have already been cut off, but they have managed to stop the eviction order being enforced by appealing to the supreme court.

The monks say the reason given for evicting them does not have any legal basis.


Patriarch Bartholomew is accused of heresy over links with Catholics
Their spiritual leader, Patriarch Bartholomew, accuses them of creating a schism within the Greek Orthodox church by refusing to recognise his authority.

He says therefore they are a forbidden brotherhood.

It is a dispute which dates back more than 30 years, to a meeting between the patriarch and the Pope.

Over the past decade, there have been further meetings between the Greek Orthodox spiritual leader and the Roman Catholic church.

The rebel monks say the contact has gone too far and is tantamount to heresy.

They say it undermines the very basis of the Orthodox faith which was created almost 1,000 years ago in the "Great Schism" which split Christianity into Eastern and Western branches.

'Orthodoxy or death'

The monks are determined to stay in their monastery and say they have enough supplies to last for several years.

Their motto is Orthodoxy or death.

The head of the monastery, Abbot Methodios, told the BBC it was a joy to be persecuted for what he called the true faith given to them by Jesus Christ.

The authorities in Mount Athos say there will be no violence.

They are now waiting for a final decision on the case by the supreme court.

[Ygxejxox]

Dear Alex,

Many thanks for this. I assumed it probably had some connection with Esphigmenou - but the headline certainly appeared today (though I can no longer find it - I was quoting it from memory, and possibly inaccurately).

In Christ,
Anthony

[redDoodia]

I think I have found what you were originally looking for. It's a video report from Malcolm Brabant dated 22/9/06. You might not be able to access it because it's UK only content.

There's not much that's new in it: for those in the UK who want to try to access it, go to the BBC News website and type 'Orthodox' into the search box (top right hand corner) and you should see it. Best to view it from a broadband connection.

With love in Christ

Alex

[thighikergove]

Does refusing to commemorate the Patriarch put one outside of communion with the Church? Is this attack on the monks justified?

[biannaruh]

I have heard Malcolm Brabant's report on BBC Radio in recent days, but have not had the chance to see any (more detailed) press or online reports. From what I can remember, the monks at Esphigmenou have been at odds with the Greek hierarchy for much longer than 30 years, it may go as far back as the adoption of the new calendar by the Greek church in the 1920s, and relations were not improved by the various "inter-faith" activities of subsequent patriarchs. It is certainly not a recent conflict, and the Esphigmenou brotherhood seem particularly intransigent to compromise, as reflected in their motto.

My personal view, Ryan, is that disobedience to one's bishop (including a patriarch) where that bishop or patriarch's edicts are not heretical would be grounds for excommunication. Of course, many in the Orthodox world do regard adoption of the Gregorian calendar as heresy; I, for what it's worth, do not. Irregularity, perhaps; heresy, no. I would be interested in what Fr David, Fr Raphael et al have to say.

[limpoporanique]

I have heard Malcolm Brabant's report on BBC Radio in recent days, but have not had the chance to see any (more detailed) press or online reports. From what I can remember, the monks at Esphigmenou have been at odds with the Greek hierarchy for much longer than 30 years, it may go as far back as the adoption of the new calendar by the Greek church in the 1920s, and relations were not improved by the various "inter-faith" activities of subsequent patriarchs. It is certainly not a recent conflict, and the Esphigmenou brotherhood seem particularly intransigent to compromise, as reflected in their motto.

My personal view, Ryan, is that disobedience to one's bishop (including a patriarch) where that bishop or patriarch's edicts are not heretical would be grounds for excommunication. Of course, many in the Orthodox world do regard adoption of the Gregorian calendar as heresy; I, for what it's worth, do not. Irregularity, perhaps; heresy, no. I would be interested in what Fr David, Fr Raphael et al have to say.

Perceived motive and way in which one tries to accomplishes things at times count for just as much as whether the thing is correct in itself.

In the case of the Calendar change the continued belief of many that it was part of a conscious effort to make the Church more acceptable to the west & the use of violence has affected how many see the change. Even in churches like that in Russia which are not at all Old Calendrists like Old Calendar Greek- the feeling is very high vs calendar change. This is connected to a general anti-western feeling as Russia finds her identity in the midst of a 'globalised world'. Similar feelings are held by Serbs but I can't speak for any other Orthodox not knowing the situation well enough.

In other words a lot of this comes down to identity in regards to who we are as Orthodox. Since we live in the midst of an overwhelmingly secular, globalised world, there is strong resistance to this from some of our Orthodox brethren. And this is especially so for those who live in countries with a non-western culture; and who especially after the fall of communism are trying to find their identity. As it turns out the Church has played a large role in this and so traditional forms of life in the Church- like the calendar- become very important ways of marking ones life in distinction to that of the surrounding world. Actually I have Russians in my parish- especially the newer arrivals from age 30-50 or so- who also relate to the calendar and tradition of the Church in a very similar way as they go about their business of going to work or school every day.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[thighikergove]

The new calendar in itself doesn't seem heretical to me, but what about the Patriarchal Encyclical of 1920, or, for example, Patriarch Bartholomew's reference to the Orthodox and Roman Catholics as the "two lungs" of Christ?

[redDoodia]

Surely the point here is that it is not the responsibility of one parish/monastery to declare its bishop heretical but rather the whole Church: until that happens one should remain loyal to ones bishop and commemorate him at the Liturgy.

If he is a heretic he needs the prayers!

One sad reality in many western countries (and eastern too, but it seems to a lesser extent?) is a parish/priest disagreeing with its/his bishop and jurisdiction hopping - surely this isn't the orthodox way?

With love in Christ

Alex

[Trikaduliana]

I must admit that I have seen that a lot in Byzantine circles and it seems just a variant of Protestantism, where every man is his own bishop and knows best.

I am convinced that there is a real blessing in stability under one's bishop. Save for the most extreme of circumstances I am sure that it is better for me to be loyal and committed to my bishop, indeed to encourage him to be the best bishop the Holy Spirit can make him, than to be constantly sniping, double-guessing and judging.

One of the things that did lead me to discount the Byzantine churches in my own pilgrimage was this lack of stability which so many of the Byzantines I corresponded with seemed to exhibit. I guess that most, if not all, were converts and maybe this is why it can be an issue. Old habits...etc.

Peter

[9rCR9hWL]

,... many in the Orthodox world do regard adoption of the Gregorian calendar as heresy; I, for what it's worth, do not. Irregularity, perhaps; heresy, no. I would be interested in what Fr David, Fr Raphael et al have to say.

I understand that, technically speaking, the Gregorian calendar and the Revised Julian Calendar are not the same, although very similar - with the Revised Julian being much more accurate astronomically. But, it's been a while since I reviewed the calculations,

[thighikergove]

From what I understand, the accuracy of calendars is relative, and the "New Julian" will eventually have the same problems that the Gregorian will have. Astronomical accuracy does not seem to be a criterion that was used for any religious calendar... except maybe the Mayan one.

[Ygxejxox]

I only partly agree with this. There seems little point in having the concept of a year if it doesn't bear any relation to the astronomical use of the term (or one of the astronomical uses).

As far as I can gather, the concern of the Fathers at Nicaea was twofold: first unity, and second, correcting inaccuracies which were leading Pascha to slip away from its place in relation to the other feasts of the year. The second concern (for practical accuracy, if not out of purely astronomical interest) was presumably what led them to entrust the Patriarch of Alexandria with responsibility for the calendar.

For what it's worth, my own attitude to the calendar question today is that the "new calendar" was (apart from allegations of a more unworthy agenda) an attempt to address the second question at the expense of the more important issue of unity. Although I belong to the EP, I think this was very regretable, and would like to see a return to the traditional calendar until such a time as the church as a whole can agree a revision in the spirit of Nicaea.

[9rCR9hWL]

From what I understand, the accuracy of calendars is relative, and the "New Julian" will eventually have the same problems that the Gregorian will have. Astronomical accuracy does not seem to be a criterion that was used for any religious calendar... except maybe the Mayan one.

These "same problems", IIRC, begin to show at least 3000+ years (or perhaps much further in future - again, I haven't reviewed calcutions in a few years) and are thus much further removed than the Gregorian.
Of course whether the calendar was originally adopted keying a 'date' or an astronomical event IS the crux of the controversy (and one I do not argue either way).

[Trikaduliana]

I would have thought that astronomical accuracy has actually been a feature of many religious calendars.

Certainly the pre-historic stone circles of Britain are tied to astronomical events and seem to have been a key feature of the religion of the people of that time.

And the religious culture of Egypt was especially astronomical and had developed an advanced science of astronomy which was one of the main reasons for the Alexandrians providing the date of Pascha each year.

The Chinese also seem to have had a very advanced astronomical and religious calendar.

The idea, as I have heard from some Byzantines, that heaven runs on the 'Julian clock' seems completely alien to the purpose and thinking of the Fathers of the time of Nicaea. Indeed it displays a certain cultural chauvinism which ignores the fact that were there to be a 'divine' calendar then it would be Hebrew not Byzantine.

What was important to them was a unity of celebration and a reasonably accurate astronomical calendar.

Some variant of the New or Revised calendar achieves both of these.

Peter

[Zebrabitch]

Hello,
This is my first post since I introduced myself. So, excuse me that I start on such a marginal(I assume) topic as the chosen calendar.
This is not a reply to your post Peter but a general remark

I can't just see why adopting more exact calendar and time keeping is in any way against the Christianity and the Orthodox Church.
God created the Universe in such a way that at least the macro features of it seem to be ruled by real numbers. So, the year doesn't divide into the equal number of days, a day into an equal number of seconds etc.
To me it is certainly more convenient to know that the plane is going to take off at 10:32 and not at 8:40 or 6:15 according to the season. Also, I prefer to know that the September equinox starts around 23/9 and not say 10/9.

Wouldn't it be ore covenient to have the same calendar and time all over the world and wouldn't have to confuse ourselves? Wouldn't it be one of the signs of reconciliation between the East and the West? Aren't there more important things to worry about like materialism and consumerism?

Sorry if I am completely off-way. Please enlighten me if and where I have gone astray.

God bless you all

Adam

[pageup85]

The New Calendar is a mistake, but it is something no one should schism over! (paraphrased from the words of Elder Philotheos Zarvakos; see the proper quotation in Precious Vessels of the Holy Spirit). This quote should suffice for now.

[12Cickprior]

From what I've been told by someone who visited the monastery, Esphigmenou has threatened that they will dynamite the whole place if the brotherhood is forced out...

My friend who went there said that the place has a very creepy atmosphere. He was told by the guestmaster that he would not be allowed to venerate the icons and relics in the katholikon because he had been baptized in a Church in communion with the New Calendarists, and that this was heresy. From what my friend told me about his conversation with the monk, the monks are not allowed to read primary texts of the Fathers... they listen to books on tapes by the Abbot and other Old Calendarists, mostly about the heresy of the World Orthodox, the rightness of Old Calendarism, etc. I think they exaggerate just how much they are persecuted. They have a siege mentality and cause problems for the rest of the monasteries on the Holy Mountain. They also exaggerate their numbers - they claim that they are the largest monastery on Agion Oros. In truth, they inflate their numbers by including all the Zealots from the sketes as members of the brotherhood of Esphigmenou.

I sympathize with the moderate Old Calendarists and resisters of innovation, but the stance of Esphigmenou is not balanced or healthy.

[id2008]

I'm not sure I understand the upset over the monks at Esphigmenou not commemorating the patriarch. I understand our ecclesiology well enough to know the place of the bishop and the church around him, and that such an arrangement in each locale is the fullness of the Catholic Church. I also think that I understand the concerns of some over false ecumenism, "that council", and more recent actions of the patriarchs of Constantinople, particularly the current one.

However, from my experiences of services at Greek churches, it seems not to be Greek custom to commemorate the patriarch but only the diocesan bishop. This is confirmed by the reaction of surprise exhibited by friends of mine from Greek churches who have come to my Russian parish and heard the patriarch commemorated, saying that they find this unusual. So why is it so strange for the Esphigmenou fathers not to commemorate the patriarch? Sorry to be dim.

Pax,
Michael

[9mm_fan]

I stand ready to be corrected, but I was under the impression that the monasteries of Athos are stavrophegial, that is, the Patriarch of Constantinople IS the "diocesan bishop" since they answer directly to him, there is no "local" bishop.

Am I wrong?

Herman the possibly clueless Pooh