[acceraStoof]

Dear Effie,

Take a fairly recent example such as the battle fought over the antiproselytism statute in Greece, (http://www.cesnur.org/conferences/ri...montgomery.htm).

In Him,
Shawn

The last paragraph of this reads : "The Greek Cases and the European Court’s Conservatism

Commentators have quite gencrally remarked that the European Court of Human Rights hesitates to upset the legal systems of the Member States, even when this would hardly result in a state’s departing from the well-established and highly respected human rights club represented by the ECHR. [8] In the Greek proselytism cases, this has meant that, whilst the Court has clearly tried to uphold freedom of evangelism in general by vindicating the applicants, it has (1) refused to declare the Greek antiproselytism statute incompatible with the Convention, in spite of its patent ambiguities and provable chilling effect upon freedom of religious expression, and (2) narrowed permissible evangelism to the minimum, restricting it in effect to "transactions among equals," even though it should be obvious that hierarchical and superior-inferior relationships are part of the very fabric of all societies and that to remove legal protection for evangelism in such contexts is to open a Pandora’s box for religious repression and the discriminatory treatment of minority religious positions."

If it were up to me there would be no antiproselytism statute in Greek law. In practice it is probably applied only when minors are involved, if even then - "transactions among equals".

In Thessaloniki, I have been frequently stopped by well dressed young men who start talking about Christ and the bible - Evangelists.
I haven't seen anyone arresting them. There is a 24 hour Evangelist radio programme in Greek that no-one seems interested in closing down.

This law does not exist to entrap Evangelists - I believe it is meant to protect our young people against e.g. satanists, who are very active in Europe and who also like to attract young people to their ranks. Does freedom of religion include satanists?

[acceraStoof]

Dear Effie,

Take a fairly recent example such as the battle fought over the antiproselytism statute in Greece, (http://www.cesnur.org/conferences/ri...montgomery.htm).

In Him,
Shawn

The author of the above is :

"John Warwick Montgomery (Ph.D., Chicago, D.Théol., Strasbourg, LL.D., Cardiff, Dr. [h.c.], Institute for Religion and Law, Moscow) is Emeritus Professor of Law and Humanities, University of Bedfordshire, England, Distinguished Research Professor of Apologetics and Christian Thought, Patrick Henry College, Virginia, U.S.A., and Director, International Academy of Apologetics, Evangelism & Human Rights, Strasbourg, France. His legal speciality is the international and comparative law of human rights and he regularly pleads religious freedom cases before the European Court of Human Rights. He is a U.S. and U.K. citizen, the author of some fifty books in five languages ( www.ciltpp.com ), and is included in Who's Who in America, Who's Who in France, the European Biographical Directory, Who's Who in the World, and Contemporary Authors.

JOHN WARWICK MONTGOMERY is considered by many to be the foremost living apologist for biblical Christianity. A renaissance scholar with a flair for controversy, he lives in France, England and the United States. "


We should always be aware of who the person is behind the words.
Shouldn't we?

Effie

[Charryith]

We should always be aware of who the person is behind the words.
Shouldn't we?

Effie Indeed we should!

Are we anywhere near to any answers? Do we support, for example, state favour towards the Orthodox Church in Russia and Greece? Do we all accept the right of adult people to follow the religion of their choice? Does anyone know of any patristic comment on this issue?

[Seiblybiozy]

When the Ford Motor Company started in the early 1900's Mr. Ford said "the people can have any color car they want as long as it is black."

[acceraStoof]

Indeed we should!

Are we anywhere near to any answers? Do we support, for example, state favour towards the Orthodox Church in Russia and Greece? Do we all accept the right of adult people to follow the religion of their choice? Does anyone know of any patristic comment on this issue?

Andreas, in my opinion, the church should be separate from the state. I hope I'm not offending anyone here. And priests should definitely not be public servants as they are here in Greece, with a monthly salary from the government. This, to my mind, is not religious freedom because people who are neither christian nor orthodox also pay the taxes which are used for the priests' salaries.

Effie

[Vobomei]

Effie,

I presume there aren't too many problems for evangelicals (and presumably other religious groups in Greece) NOW precisely because of the legal case I referred to. Being a part of the E.U., Greece has to generally abide by its laws. And trusting Dr. Montgomery is not the issue; he was simply one of the lawyers involved in the case. And he happens to also be a well-known Christian apologist. In any case, you can look up about what happened and why from secular sources as well.

I only offered a modern Greek example of Orthodox persecution because it was so recent, and becaue the quote about how Orthodox has always supported pluralism was taken from the Greek Orthodox Church in America, right?

Otherwise, the examples of Orthodox persecution of other sects is pretty endless, right? Beginning right when Christians in the East and West came to political power. Think of St. Theodosius, one of the earliest Christian emperors, and one of the first to persecute pagans. And then you can just trace the history of what happened to rival sects whenever the Orthodox were in power from that point on. Of course, when they weren't in power, they couldn't persecute....

And I don't mean to point the finger at the Orthodox alone, as if other Christian groups did not do the same despicable acts (with the Anabaptists being the lone exception, commited as they were to pacifism). Its just better to own up to the sins of the past, than to pretend they never happened, which I see being implied by the quote you offered.

In Him.
Shawn

[acceraStoof]

[QUOTE=Shawn Lazar;55902]Effie,

I presume there aren't too many problems for evangelicals (and presumably other religious groups in Greece) NOW precisely because of the legal case I referred to. Being a part of the E.U., Greece has to generally abide by its laws. "

I would trust Greeks and Greek law before I would trust faceless, anonymous men in Brussels who I didn't even vote for. We are hoping that the EU will help with the horrendous organization difficulties this country has (an ethnic character fault ) but I would not change Greek justice and honour and pride for anything.

As for recent laws : I know that Jehovah's Witnesses are allowed to serve as medics in the Hellenic Army during their national service, because of their religious beliefs. This is not a recent decision - I've known this for about 20-25 years I think.

Shawn, which country is perfect? I am not going to apologize for the things that are wrong with Greece. There are so many that I would have a hard time listing them........................

But, soften a little please. We are both christians. Is your religion perfect? Is anything? I have found wise and wonderful things in the writings of many Protestants e.g. Hannah Whitall Smith, Catherine Marshall, May Culley (one of my favourites even though she only wrote one book), but I love Orthodoxy. It is solid, it is true. Are there some things that could be changed? Not in Orthodoxy itself. I believe that past acts and present difficulties are caused not by Orthodoxy but by those who might be Orthodox in name but not in spirit. You mentioned the quote I included. What would you have preferred? That he not mention our beliefs but concentrate on petty details that have nothing to do with christianity.

Effie

[SypeKifef]

Effie,

I presume there aren't too many problems for evangelicals (and presumably other religious groups in Greece) NOW precisely because of the legal case I referred to. Being a part of the E.U., Greece has to generally abide by its laws. "

This strikes me as simplistic, given that Estonia and Latvia are still doing a fine job of harrassing their Russian-speaking minorities and the central institutions of the EU are doing nothing. In fact the recent history suggests that it is rather difficult for the EU to force a state to do anything much once it is inside the "club".

Certainly membership of the EU has had a great effect on Greece. But I would attach equal importance to the changes in the Greeks' views of how these things should be done, following their experience of the Junta. This is of course the background to Greece's membership of the EEC in the first place, and its willingness to implement its laws. Or at the very least, there is a dialectic between the two.

I would be interested to see answers to Andreas' question on pluralism and the Fathers (I am certainly not in a position to provide them). It seems to me though that there is a distinction between persecution and restricting the right of groups to propagate their belief in any way they please. The first has, I think, occurred in Orthodox countries, and I do not defend it. But is the second the same? Of course it is given certain common ideological or jurisprudential assumptions, but that I guess is where the debate starts, and it is one that I am far from clear about myself.

[acceraStoof]

I wanted to start a new thread for this but couldn't figure out how to do it.

In a small way it has to do with Shawn's claim that the Orthodox don't know their gospel so I'll post it here.

The orthodox liturgy

Something happened to me this morning and even though it might be inappropriate to mention it, I wanted to share it. The last couple of days I have been part of a discussion started by a poster from another tradition, who claimed that the orthodox are ignorant of the gospel.

Every weekday my husband and I listen to the morning Orthodox liturgy on the radio and this morning while I was listening I was also thinking about some of the things we had been talking about on this thread. A vision/thought came to me. I saw the words of this beautiful liturgy being said all over the world twice a day and at all hours of the day, given the different time zones, going up to heaven. Our liturgy is full of glory to God, of praise, of wonder. The Lord’s prayer, the Creed, the passages from the Holy Gospel and from the Apostles, each day, every day, twice a day.

I listened so carefully this morning to the beautiful words of our Liturgy/Service, and especially, the reverence with which the passages from the New Testament are repeated. I also better understood something Elder Paisios says in one of his books. I’m writing from memory now : he said that monks all over the world, especially those on the Holy Mountain, pray each day, all day, for all the people in the world. This is our Orthodox liturgy.

How someone can say that people who attend church twice a day, as lots of people here in Greece do, who listen carefully to our liturgy twice a day all their lives, can be ignorant of the gospel is obviously an indication of ignorance of this particular situation. This is not the issue however and it is even quite unimportant.

I wanted to post this message because of the joy I am feeling after this experience.

I also thought about the fact that the gospel and apostle passages for that particular day are read but not explained and then realized that people are free to meditate on them all day and come to their own understanding. This is what Christian meditation is - not the eastern version of meditation but our own Christian Orthodox version.

I also wondered if the Roman Catholics celebrate the same liturgy every day, twice a day. I confess that I don't know - and this is an example of my own ignorance.

What a wonderful thing our daily Liturgy is. What a blessing for those who decide to become priests. What a blessing for all of us.

Effie

[Charryith]

Many thanks for sharing that, Effie.

What a wonderful thing our daily Liturgy is. What a blessing for those who decide to become priests. I don't think we can know what priests go through, especially during the Anaphora. We should always pray for them then. I say something like this in my mind: 'O Lord, protect and preserve thy servant, our Father in God N. at this most holy time. Compass him about with angels and saints to guard him from every attack of the enemy.'

[amberamuletuk]

Dear Effie,

along similar lines as your post above, I was talking to my sister yesterday, and somehow the conversation turned to talking about our saints. (My sister is protestant). I had just read about St John of Kronstadt, and what struck me was the discription of his eyes. Because it was those beautiful eyes that stopped me everytime I walked past his icon in our church. I could not read his name, I asked one of our older women, and she did not know who it was, and finally, got a chance to ask our priest, earlier this week, and he told me who it was. So, as soon as I got home, I read about him, and I was thrilled. Even through his icon, he can look at me, like he looked at people when he was walking on earth.

When I described his eyes to my sister, and the effect his look had on people, she exclaimed: "That sounds like the eyes of Jesus!" And I thought: YES! That's exactly it! That's why we love our saints. When they look at us miserable struggling weaklings, we are fully known and fully loved and there's no greater comfort than that.

BUT - in my protestant days, there were no such eyes to look at me and comfort me and bring me healing. It was only in my imagination, I never thought I"d meet such eyes on earth. Now I discover a whole new world, in Orthodoxy, where Christ's Eyes still look at us, through his saints. And it does change us... whether we 'know' the gospel or not, whether we can articulate our faith or not...

I"ve been watching 'cradle' orthodox and there's one thing that stands out to me... humility. I think, cradle orthodox are generally more humble than all other christians in the world. And it has nothing to do with their learnedness. I think it has to do with the kind of people they've been surrounded by. The kind of people, they've looked up to, and tried to emulate. My sister is in Kenya and she said of the people, that they're not as friendly as the Ethiopians. And I knew why. It's the years of being orthodox, it has affected, not just the Orthodox, but also the unbelievers around, to a certain degree. The Ethiopians are generally more loving, more accepting, more forgiving, more trusting... more humble. Oh, I've seen some intense pride in them and it makes them look quite ridiculous when they get all puffed up - but maybe the reason it looked so bad was because, in general, they are a humble people.

I've seen the same amongst the Greeks and the Russians I'm getting to know. For instance, why should anyone let me speak? I am a 'neophyte' (sounds like some kind of lizard) - and I know nothing, I should be silent and watching and learning, not exposing my ignorance. But they listen, and even find worthwhile things in what I say. I'd never listen to a new convert.

Humility... I've never seen it lived out. The Orthodox Church has. And they know what it looks like. So they can emulate it. There's the entire Gospel for you.

IN Christ,
Mary.

[Asianunta]

I"ve been watching 'cradle' orthodox and there's one thing that stands out to me... humility. I think, cradle orthodox are generally more humble than all other christians in the world.

Mary.

Giggle... You have not met me - it is obvious - and some other cradle people I know . But now I will act humble because I know that Mary is watching.

[Asianunta]

The Orthodox have never believed in religious pluralism, hence all the persecution they (we?) have wrought on dissident groups through the centuries and today.

If you read the lives of saints, martyrs and the works of the fathers you will find out that the opposite of what you state above is true.

[acceraStoof]

Dear Effie,


Humility... I've never seen it lived out. The Orthodox Church has. And they know what it looks like. So they can emulate it. There's the entire Gospel for you.

IN Christ,
Mary.

Thank you, Mary, for your post. It did me good to read it. It is full of love and inspiring things to think about.

Mary, you talk about humility. I was just doing a little research for this post and learnt that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is considered to be the oldest of all the Eastern christianities. Something I did not know. I had the arrogant assumption that we were "bringing Christianity" to Ethiopians!!!! How nicely God makes us aware of our arrogance.

[amberamuletuk]

Giggle... You have not met me - it is obvious - and some other cradle people I know . But now I will act humble because I know that Mary is watching.

Nina, we all have our weaknesses and strengths. I've seen things in you, that matches with other orthodox Christian, things that I haven't seen in me and all most of my protestant family/friends. Gotta be an outsider to see it. You're like a fish, you don't know that you're wet.

And... yes. I am definitely watching!

Mary, you talk about humility. I was just doing a little research for this post and learnt that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is considered to be the oldest of all the Eastern christianities. Something I did not know. I had the arrogant assumption that we were "bringing Christianity" to Ethiopians!!!! How nicely God makes us aware of our arrogance.

Hmmm.... that's a source of pride for the Ethiopians. It rubs me the wrong way. The Theotokos and the Apostles were not Ethiopians. If the Ethiopian Eunich was the first Ethiopian convert, then he was the contemporary of many Romans and Greeks, etc, who also converted about that time - the entire first Generation of Christians, was pretty international, as far as I can tell. Or else, the account in Acts would've read - And all those who weren't Jewish heard Peter's sermon in Amharic, because they were all Ethiopians...

Please forgive me. I've heard them boast about their orthodoxy and it doesn't look attractive.

In Christ,
Mary.

[Seiblybiozy]

Andreas, in my opinion, the church should be separate from the state. I hope I'm not offending anyone here. And priests should definitely not be public servants as they are here in Greece, with a monthly salary from the government. This, to my mind, is not religious freedom because people who are neither christian nor orthodox also pay the taxes which are used for the priests' salaries.

Effie

I may not be remembering this correctly, but the Byzantine double headed Eagle which is in the middle of our church floor does represent the perfect union of church and state at least as it was early on. I think this is also the case in the Russian state when the Tszars were still with us. The church did not run the state nor the state run the church. They worked in perfect harmony with each other.

Personally, the way it should be. Being American I was taught how a dictatorship under a Tsar was a terrible thing for the country and people. It was not until I became Orthodox that I understood the true symbiosis of the two.

Frs. David & Raphael please correct my understanding.

Paul

[acceraStoof]

I may not be remembering this correctly, but the Byzantine double headed Eagle which is in the middle of our church floor does represent the perfect union of church and state at least as it was early on. I think this is also the case in the Russian state when the Tszars were still with us. The church did not run the state nor the state run the church. They worked in perfect harmony with each other.

Personally, the way it should be. Being American I was taught how a dictatorship under a Tsar was a terrible thing for the country and people. It was not until I became Orthodox that I understood the true symbiosis of the two.

Frs. David & Raphael please correct my understanding.

Paul

And mine too. I don't know enough about the double eagle to have an opinion. I have seen it on the Church's flag but I am very ignorant about what it actually means. I know it is the symbol for the Byzantine Empire but that's as far as my knowledge reaches.

I would also like to know its history.

Effie

[limpoporanique]

Paul Cowan wrote:

I may not be remembering this correctly, but the Byzantine double headed Eagle which is in the middle of our church floor does represent the perfect union of church and state at least as it was early on. I think this is also the case in the Russian state when the Tszars were still with us. The church did not run the state nor the state run the church. They worked in perfect harmony with each other. I don't think the double-headed eagle originally had this symbolic meaning. The eagle, especially in European based cultures, symbolizes majestic rule. Many of the ideas associated with this symbol- rule, political polity- are developed under the Roman Empire and then pass into our European cultures.

The double-headed eagle seems to especially symbolize the universal aspect of this sense of rule. One sees its conscious adoption for example in later Russia where the Grand Prince of Moscow asserts his right to sole sovereign rule of a unitary state. It is from the this point that the Grand Princes begin to gradually adopt the title of Tsar (derived from Caesar in Roman) as signifying their right of rule over all the other princes and principalities of Russia.

Added symbolism can indeed refer to the harmony of Church and State which was the Byzantine ideal.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[SypeKifef]

I think the Roman eagle became double-headed in Constantinople, possibly in reference to the geographical situation of the city, bridging East and West; though I have read that this motif also occurs earlier in Middle-Eastern mythology (I can't remember where or with what significance). It was then adopted by the "Holy Roman Empire" (hence the Habsburgs) and by the Ottomans, as well as of course by the Tsars. All of these claimed in some sense to be the heirs of Constantinople.

I hope this is correct, or at least not too misleading.

Like Paul, I was brought up on a diet of how backward and evil Tsarist rule was, and have had a lot of unlearning to do.

[SypeKifef]

By the way, could I suggest this thread might be moved to an area that doesn't need pre-moderation? It isn't really about current affairs any more (I don't think), and it might help the fluency of the discussion.