[SypeKifef]

"Judgement (krisi) comes naturally to people. Condemnation (kata-krisi) and disapproval (epi-krisi) come from malice. Discernment (dia-krisi) is a gift of God and we should pray to be given it. It is indispensable for our protection and our progress."

(Abbess Gavriilia)

[RildFiemodo]

Wouldn't it be nice if the Patriarchs put aside their politics and concentrated on their flocks and getting them to stop hating each other? Wouldn't it be nice of Orthodox Christians could set the example for other Christians on how to love thy neighbor?

Dear Brethren!

Today I found this on my mailbox:


http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/129.aspx#1

Is the Patriarch of Constantinople losing the insight for the right mass? Is he willing to do everything to seed diversion in the orthodox world and therefore get the papal brotherly kiss?
What is your thinking about this theme?

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj.

[Charryith]

Wouldn't it be nice if the Patriarchs put aside their politics and concentrated on their flocks and getting them to stop hating each other? That's why John the Merciful, for example, is a saint and many other patriarchs are not.

[Vobomei]

Forgive these silly question, but I don't know much about Constantinople, and even less about how the ancient patriarchates came to their influence.

First, are there any Christians left in Constantinople (Istanbul)? And what about in Antioch and Jerusalem and the other patriarchates? I mean, how many Christians actually live in these places? A few thousand? (I read on Wikipedia that there are only 123 active churches in Istanbul, and 14,000 "Christians" in Jerusalem. For comparison's sake, Tyler, TX has 156 Baptist churches (not to mention dozens of others), and a single church in Dallas, TX has in excess of 20,000 people).

Second, I think I read somewhere that the ancient patriarchates came to their positions of influence because the cities they were located in were once upon a time major centers of economic and political power. But if these same cities have become more or less insignificant, and there are few or no Christians currently living in them, should the patriarchates be moved someplace else?

-Shawn

[Charryith]

As a patriarch of Moscow once said to a patriarch of Constantinople, 'you are Ecumenical Patriarch but you have 2,000 Christians, and I have 200,000,000.

[immoceefe]

The ecumenical patriarch is an artifact of the Eastern Catholic Empire, dating from the beginning of the 4th Century. The challenge today is how to represent the Christian ecumene when there is no Christian empire anywhere, and when sectarianism is the rule. The other patriarchates are older and have a certain identification with the Apostolic era, so, in a sense I think, have symbolic importance beyond the question of how many Christians live there. Except of course for Moscow, which comes much later, and yet Russia is the closest thing to an Orthodox nation there is, apart, perhaps from Serbia. I am glad to hear that the Moscow Patriarch used the number 2 million for his flock, which is probably a lot more accurate than his press releases.

Clearly, the Ecumenical Patriarchate ought to be moved to New York, since the Greek Orthodox in America are his only canonical flock. The current Patriarch has been flailing about for significance and relevancy and it's not working.

[Charryith]

I am glad to hear that the Moscow Patriarch used the number 2 million for his flock, which is probably a lot more accurate than his press releases. Please see my edit! I don't know which patriarch said that. So far as I can glean, regular attendance at church in Russia is at between 4 and 5 million.

[immoceefe]

According to Wikipedia (sometimes suspect) there are today 27,000 parish churches in Russia. We can only speculate on the average size of membership, but 4-5 million may not be an unreasonable number to project, i.e. approx. 150 - 200 members per.

This would represent approx. 3% to 5% of the population. However, many people in Russia consider themselves to be Orthodox who do not attend Church regularly, because of its legacy, but who knows the numbers? However, many official pronouncements basically treat every man, woman and child in Russia as Orthodox, which leads to the incredible figure of 300 million Orthodox world-wide as an often quoted figure in the press. These unfortunate exaggerations lead to equally unfortunate conclusions.

[9rCR9hWL]

The ecumenical patriarch is an artifact of the Eastern Catholic Empire, dating from the beginning of the 4th Century. The challenge today is how to represent the Christian ecumene when there is no Christian empire anywhere, and when sectarianism is the rule. The other patriarchates are older and have a certain identification with the Apostolic era, so, in a sense I think, have symbolic importance beyond the question of how many Christians live there. Except of course for Moscow, which comes much later, and yet Russia is the closest thing to an Orthodox nation there is, apart, perhaps from Serbia. I am glad to hear that the Moscow Patriarch used the number 2 million for his flock, which is probably a lot more accurate than his press releases.

Clearly, the Ecumenical Patriarchate ought to be moved to New York, since the Greek Orthodox in America are his only canonical flock. The current Patriarch has been flailing about for significance and relevancy and it's not working.

I think there are too many partial truths here to ignore.
First, The Ecumenical Patriarchate's see includes more than just "Istanbul", notably the northern territories of Greece, the Dodecanese Islands, and, if I'm not mistaken, the island of Crete. He has charge of far more than just the oft-referenced declining Orthodox Turkish population of Constantinople.
Second, to assert that "America' is his only 'canonical' flock must then include central and south America. Moreover that line of reasoning would then include Australia, and the vacant see of Rome (western Europe). I'm not sure you want to go that far, but it does follow.
Third, I am always amazed that so many Orthodox do not understand that our bishops are charged with more than the salvation of those in the Church, but indeed with all the souls in their sees - Orthodox and non-Orthodox as well. The EP will probably never abandon his witness in his ancient see.

[redDoodia]

Clearly, the Ecumenical Patriarchate ought to be moved to New York ...

Not only is he Ecumenical Patriarch but also Archbishop of Constantinople (Istanbul). He heads an albeit small flock in his city and while he is able to so, I am sure he would want to remain with his people.

I think the problem here is the tendency to raise a Patriarch to the equivalent of a Catholic Pope. Surely, authority primarily resides with the diocesan bishop, not some (often) distant patriarch? A patriarch's primacy within the patriarchate, in my opinion, is not as supreme ruler but rather primus inter pares.

With love in Christ

Alex

[SypeKifef]

and yet Russia is the closest thing to an Orthodox nation there is, apart, perhaps from Serbia.

Well, that's put the Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks and Georgians in their place...

[GrileVege]

Dear Brethren,

The problem is that the Patriarch is tempted by Satan, like the second temptation he offered Jesus after being 40(!) days in the desert. He seems to think that being popular and admired in the world, by those who are in truth heretics and so long departed from the One Church (which is the orthodox church!) will give him something like the pope of Rome.
Being in the newspapers and on MTV and so on, will not bring anyone into paradise. We only can pray for him and that he will be given insight.

In Christ, Nicolaj

[Asianunta]

Well, that's put the Romanians, Bulgarians, Greeks and Georgians in their place...

Right! And where is the value of quality versus quantity? What did God say to Abraham concerning Sodom and Gomorrah?

[RildFiemodo]

I think everyone should just ease up on the Patriarch. I'm not defending him nor am I criticizing him. In my opinion, at least we don't have a guy who thinks he's Christ on earth and can't make a mistake because he thinks he's perfect like God. And that man would be Pope Benedict. And so what if the Patriarch gets a little press? As Nikolaj said, "One Church". We're THE CHURCH not just a church. The Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, etc. all came for THE CHURCH--Orthodox Christianity. If the Patriarch gets a little press, then more people will know about the Orthodox Church. If you mention to someone you're Orthodox, they'll ask if you're Orthodox Jewish. Then when you qualify the statement that you're Greek Orthodox, their response "Oh, you're like the Catholics. Do you follow the Pope?" I don't know about you but I've come across this attitude all my life. As Metropolitan Philip said (Antiochian Archdiocese of America), "Orthodoxy is the best kept secret in America."[and probably the world too]. Do we want to remain that way? Isn't our duty as Orthodox Christians to preach Christ's Word (not proselytize--which is what Western Christians did--when they forced their faith on those who already had faith in God--remember the 4th Crusade (aka the Sacking of Constantinople in 1204-setting up Orthodox Christianity for 400 years of slavery and persecution under Ottoman rule?)?

[9rCR9hWL]

Dear Brethren,

The problem is that the Patriarch is tempted by Satan, like the second temptation he offered Jesus after being 40(!) days in the desert. He seems to think that being popular and admired in the world, by those who are in truth heretics and so long departed from the One Church (which is the orthodox church!) will give him something like the pope of Rome.
Being in the newspapers and on MTV and so on, will not bring anyone into paradise. We only can pray for him and that he will be given insight.

In Christ, Nicolaj

And he is the only one tempted by the evil one? I daresay the Internet affords many of us equal opportunity to bringing attention to ourselves. Perhaps these venues he uses help keep the plight of the captive patriarchate in the international news (sorry, I must have missed MTV) and, hopefully, mitigates the Muslim persecution.

[GrileVege]

Right! And where is the value of quality versus quantity? What did God say to Abraham concerning Sodom and Gomorrah?

Well I think you hit it! The one problem the Patriarch is having, is being afraid to have a little flock in Turkey. for his measures a too little flock and this he wants to enlarge by all he can come by.

But as you said it very right it is also a question about quantity versus quality! As in many writings of the Fathers mentioned it is always better to do care for ourselves in terms of quantity, we are as they say not able to give any quality to our praying, to our struggle towards heaven.

But as you mention here rightly the things happened at Sodom and Gomorrah, the care about those who believe is in the hands of the Lord! And he allows a whole city living in evil to be saved by a few righteous. And here should the Patriarch trust a bit more the Lord as himself.

We only can do little, but therefore we will see the wonders God does in our lives!

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Asianunta]

Nicolaj, I actually meant those words for the people who said that Constantinople has little flock, and the Patriarchate should be shut down. Can't handle to hear that the throne and legacy of such great saints like St. Chrysostom and the like, has to be removed from there. That kind of thinking does not contain even the abc of pagan love, let alone Orthodox love.

Constantinople has produced many saints. It has seen much blood and martyrdom and Christian witness. It is petty to say this has larger number, or that has smaller number. By the same logic: Hell (like Sodom and Gomorrah) has a very large number of people too. However that does not make it better than Paradise.

We all should just drop such comparisons and judging and see what better quality we can give to our own personal fight. Fathers warn about ruining the reputation of our brothers in such ways and by such public means. I am a human and a sinner too and 99.99% I can not do everything that the Fathers say. However in this case we should remember that the Devil is not the Patriarch and is not in Constantinople. We should have compassion on all, but focus our fight to the Devil who is everywhere in the world. Only like that we will be like lightning rods that will attract the grace of God on earth. BTW if I become a saint and have boldness in front of God, and move to Constantinople, just so that you know, I will ask God to give grace to the entire world and not just to my neighborhood. But until then I remain a sinner worse than whom some have been describing here and worse than all people of the world all together.

[Vobomei]

Hi,

I initiated the question of why the Constantinople still had a Patriarchate, only because I understood that the whole idea of a 'Patriarchate' was linked to the power and influence that a city had over others, and not as an attack against the Patriarch himself. When Constantinople was declared the new capitol of the Roman Empire (the New Rome), the city gained a new status and prestige, and then a Patriarchate. When Constantinople fell, the centre of the Orthodox world moved to Moscow, and so it too gained a new status, and so forth.

So the question is, does it work both ways? Does the status of a Patriarchate change when it loses power? If Constantinople has very few Christians, indeed, if it is not even in a Christian land anymore, should it still exercise the power it does? Moreover, from what I gather from this messageboard, should Constantinople still have this authority given that many Orthodox believe the Patriarch is exercising his power wrongly (ie: for ecumenism, etc)?

[GrileVege]

Today I found this http://www.orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/131.aspx#2

in my mailbox. I think it is interesting because some here are a bit out of the picture about what all the troubles caused by Ravenna are about.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj, the sinner

[immoceefe]

In re-reading above posts, I note that the Patriarch of Moscow claimed 200 million in his flock, not the 2 million that I had read! I pray that someday we can get honest about these figures.

Regarding bishops, IMHO, the bishop ought to live amongst his flock. The primary flock of the Ecumenical Patriarch is composed of Greek Orthodox in the U.S. The last figure I saw was that there were 600,000 names on the GOA mailing list. With approx. 600 parishes this is probably an inflated number, but close enough. The problem of course is that were the Ecumenical Patriarchate to move to New York, it would in some sense make the Archbishop superfluous. But money from the U.S. Church is what supports the Patriarchate. So there are a number of historical anomalies here.

Things change, and I see no doctrinal issue at stake here. So the Patriarchate would do well to move. But it will not likely happen in my lifetime.