[GrileVege]

Dear Brethren!

Today I found this on my mailbox:


http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/129.aspx#1

Is the Patriarch of Constantinople losing the insight for the right mass? Is he willing to do everything to seed diversion in the orthodox world and therefore get the papal brotherly kiss?
What is your thinking about this theme?

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj.

[9mm_fan]

My thinking is along these lines I suppose;

Romans 13:1-3 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

Philippians 2:14-15 Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

[Charryith]

Do you mean, Herman, that we must obey those in authority over us always? Not so sure about that: 'I was only following orders'. Should Orthodox saints have obeyed an Arian patriarch? Of course, Patriarchs of Constantinople are in a very difficult position - they are beholden to western powers for their survival but does that lead to a kind of Sergianism? The successors to Patriarch Maximos know what happened to him!

[9mm_fan]

It is indeed a bit of a sticky wicket, but even a cursory study of Church history will cause your concern to grow rather than ease in that respect.

What about the times of the Ottoman captivity, when the position of the Patriarch went to the highest bidder and was the civil as well as spiritual ruler of the Rum? How much more "sergianist" can you get?

But then again, "Sergianism" isn't what some people make it out to be. It is not and never has been officially declared by any competant Orrthodox authority "heresy" although that term has been thrown about, a bit too liberally and enthusiastically for my taste. If so, then the Church simply ceased to exist outside of Russia when the Ottomans took Constantinople. I have a problem with that.

We are not Donatists. Obedience, even to a "wrong" patriarch (and there have been several) still counts as obedience. YOUR salvation is not necessarily surfeit simply because your bishop made a bad decision, but HE will have to answer for it, HE will be called to account in a manner should make you and I shudder.

[w4HPpbSW]

I am not saying that Herman is incorrect about what he shared concerning obedience. It is as he says! but there is an interesting fact concerning the Nation of Israel. The Nation of Israel was held responsible for following bad leaders. I think in the end, it is a matter of conscience. The Lord gave us a conscience to warn us when we are getting off track. We should all be aware, however, that some of us have seared" consciences and need our spiritual Fathers guidance in almost everything. I just don't think we can get away without the fear and trembling part!

[GrileVege]

Dear Brethren!

He doesn't rules, he is the first among equals! And that is the most he ever will be. And there he can invite the pope of Rome so much he wants, and gives up everything Orthodoxy ever is, but there are limits.
And I hope and pray for him that he will come to sense before he sells all to Rome for nothing but hell in return! He even betrays his own sheep at Athos, the Holy monastery of Esphigemenou.
He needs our prayers so much and maybe he will find back to the Lord and put his strength in the name of Jesus and not in the name of Rome.

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[Charryith]

Herman is right to the extent that working out our salvation doesn't depend on the sanctity or otherwise of our particular patriarch, but there might come a point when, as James says, your conscience says, 'I can't go along with this'. My source for the details of what happened to Patriarch Maximos did not leave EP after the events which happened.

[immoceefe]

The last Pope was a geopolitical pope, and I think the current Patriarch of Constantinople wants to follow his example, and try to restore Constantinople to a level of equality to the Pope in terms of geopolitical influence.

[acceraStoof]

While we respect our Orthodox leaders we should never forget that they are men and some of them are very ambitious.

I am following what is happening with the situation in Greece at the moment, and it is disgusting the way these bishops are not even waiting for Christodoulos to die, if that is God's will for him. There is nothing Christian in their actions - it is all about ambition, glory on earth, and wealth.

Christ himself drove the moneylenders from the temple.

Christ is the head of our church, not archbishops etc.

Sadly, being a priest is only a profession to some people here. There are wonderful priests who have been "promoted" - the departed Metropolitan of Siatista Antonios, a saintly person, friend of Elder Paisios, and deeply mourned by all of Siatista (an ancient city near Kozani) was one such person.

Effie

[Asianunta]

I know a monk in Greece who did not even accept to become a priest, or a deacon! They wanted to make him a bishop and he "run away" to another place. In that other place the evil one fought him so much. Threatening him physically through some people, and even brought great shame to him because of false slander. I know some cases in Greece similar to this one... Hearts ache when we see and hear such things. Especially when the person involved is saintly, but I am sure most do not even know them. We do not hear about such good examples often. We hear about many negative cases in the media because that is what is profitable and often poor journalism generates even more money. People are quick to buy tabloids for stars, but even quicker for the clergy. There is an intoxicating, relaxing effect for our consciences when we hear tabloid-news for the clergy.

Wonderful people like Effie are hurt and saddened by such news, whereas people who do not even believe in God make money by promoting such things. Dear Effie, I know it is difficult, but try not to believe everything media serves there to people (like everywhere). I know that it would be so much more fruitful to hear about people such as Saint Chrysostom who run away when they were asked to take a throne, but these saintly people are not scarce and do exist even in our times and often they are hidden like gems and only next generations might hear about them because they do not wish to be known to the world. You know how much they slandered Saint Nektarios and who he really is. Take all the news with a grain of salt and know that often such journalistic-gossip is cheap-malignant-gossip not different from evil-gossip in our daily life. It is exactly the same just that we are paying money to access it. I am not saying that all clergy are saints, but often media there super-inflates and generalizes different phenomena. We know that the source of all these is the evil one.

You made my heart leap with joy the other day when you expressed your wish for your son to become a monk. I am sure you have seen the super inflated by the media "tragedies" on Greek TV, when families do not consent with their children following a monastic path. It is heart-breaking that such media is allowed to be broadcast and distort realities and brainwash many.

I know dear Effie that you have a caring heart and love Church and love God, so do not allow such news to disturb your peace. I say these with very sincere love (like always) because I was just through a similar experience some days ago as you can see in another thread. And I learned that this sensitivity can cause harm.

[Charryith]

Again, fits the prophecies of St Anatoly the Younger.

[acceraStoof]

I know a monk in Greece who did not even accept to become a priest, or a deacon! They wanted to make him a bishop and he "run away" to another place. In that other place the evil one fought him so much. Threatening him physically through some people, and even brought great shame to him because of false slander. I know some cases in Greece similar to this one... Hearts ache when we see and hear such things. Especially when the person involved is saintly, but I am sure most do not even know them. We do not hear about such good examples often. We hear about many negative cases in the media because that is what is profitable and often poor journalism generates even more money. People are quick to buy tabloids for stars, but even quicker for the clergy. There is an intoxicating, relaxing effect for our consciences when we hear tabloid-news for the clergy.

Wonderful people like Effie are hurt and saddened by such news, whereas people who do not even believe in God make money by promoting such things. Dear Effie, I know it is difficult, but try not to believe everything media serves there to people (like everywhere). I know that it would be so much more fruitful to hear about people such as Saint Chrysostom who run away when they were asked to take a throne, but these saintly people are not scarce and do exist even in our times and often they are hidden like gems and only next generations might hear about them because they do not wish to be known to the world. You know how much they slandered Saint Nektarios and who he really is. Take all the news with a grain of salt and know that often such journalistic-gossip is cheap-malignant-gossip not different from evil-gossip in our daily life. It is exactly the same just that we are paying money to access it. I am not saying that all clergy are saints, but often media there super-inflates and generalizes different phenomena. We know that the source of all these is the evil one.

You made my heart leap with joy the other day when you expressed your wish for your son to become a monk. I am sure you have seen the super inflated by the media "tragedies" on Greek TV, when families do not consent with their children following a monastic path. It is heart-breaking that such media is allowed to be broadcast and distort realities and brainwash many.

I know dear Effie that you have a caring heart and love Church and love God, so do not allow such news to disturb your peace. I say these with very sincere love (like always) because I was just through a similar experience some days ago as you can see in another thread. And I learned that this sensitivity can cause harm.

Ah Nina. Gerontissa Gabriela said the same thing you do. "- Have faith. -There are people who like to make fun of the church. - They will make up scandalous stories to embarrass the Church. " Unfortunately, we frequently experience at first hand things we would rather not experience at all.

Nina, as you have seen in several threads where I have commented on priests, anything negative is hard for me to accept. I know that this has been a problem for me for years. I cannot stand hypocrisy and people who are double faced. But this attitude doesn't say much for me, does it?
Who am I to criticize? Only God can see into the heart of a person and only He can judge. I so want our priests to be holy people, men our children can look up to, admire, and even copy. I try to emulate the holy people whose books I read. They neither criticize nor judge, they accept. This fault of mine is something I have endlessly discussed with my spiritual father and my husband. They both say that it is not something I should concern myself with and that each of us will answer to God individually. The danger here, of course, is that our faith might be compromised. My husband is able to separate his faith completely from his occasional irritation and dismay at these so-called professional priests. Did you know that they are public servants here, and are paid by the government?

Nina, people here don't believe in keeping their feelings to themselves, and I have seen them express their anger when priests have acted in an inappropriate manner. Perhaps this attitude has to do with the fact that they are so completely comfortable with their religion.

Nina, each time your words make me see the proper path that each christian should follow. Thank you.

Effie

[Asianunta]

Dear Effie,

No it is not only you. I too have the same problem. Also it is not only about judging priests, but all people around us. I do this a lot! And when I thought I was ok. someone told me that I am judging positively and even that is a sin - like saying "John is an angel! or Father Y is a saint!" Even such statements are classified as judging! It took me awhile to recover from this discovery, because I was trying to cut back on negative judging and there was news for me that any kind of judging is actually that: judging.

What has helped me (sometimes since I am not able to refrain from this always) is to think about saints who are considered Fools for Christ. If I get angry at someone who is not behaving according to our society's standards I say "Nina what if the person is a Fool for Christ? What shame will it be for you if you treat him/her not well?" It is an eye-opener to read the lives of the Fools for Christ. Alas, although it can improve me maybe for a week, I soon get back to my old ways, so I guess I have to keep their lives by my bedside and read them always. I wonder if there is a book which includes them all. That will be a good dose against this sin.

Also a Father/Mother (possibly mother Gabriela) has said: be careful how you treat others because maybe tomorrow they will be saints. This quote was also aligned with the example of the Fools for Christ and it is very grounding and humbling. But I fail to follow these quotes because when I need such quotes I happen to forget them. So the struggle continues.

From my personal experience (atheist/agnostic) media sometimes in Greece (like everywhere) can be very vicious towards the Church. Keep away from such news so you preserve your peace since we are vulnerable. I admire people like Dimitri (your husband) and I wish I was like him.

[AnimeThat]

The last Pope was a geopolitical pope, and I think the current Patriarch of Constantinople wants to follow his example, and try to restore Constantinople to a level of equality to the Pope in terms of geopolitical influence.

Seraphim,
I think it is actually quite a bit more than that. Patriarch of Const. is striving for a formal supremacy among the Orthodox just as the pope is seen in the west. This issue has come up twice during meetings of the Orthodox-Latin Commission in recent years. In Belgrade (2 yrs ago I think) a declaration worded to imply that His Holiness Part. Bartholomew has the same standing in the East as Pope Benedict in the West was blocked by Russian representatives as ecclesiologically flawed.
A few weeks ago in Ravenna, at a gathering of the same Commission, the Orthodox Chair (a bishop from Constantinople Patriarchate) invited an uncanonical "jurisdiction" to the talks - "Apostolic" Church of Estonia. This provoked a walk-out by the Russians, and arguably had been done to achieve just that.
Today I read on a Russian church website that the result of the walk-out was adotion by remaining Orthodox members of a resultion similar to the one that failed in Belgrade.

I think this is quite scary. Constantinople forged two "unholy" Unions for political purposes in the past, both failed, but then Orthodox lived in Constantnople. It seems that now we are standing at the verge of another such union.

Lord have mercy on us all and on your servant Part. Bartholomew.


Yura

[w4HPpbSW]

Dear Effie:
You are more capable than you think! and you are right not to judge (meaning that you do not take The Lord's place in determining the state of their eternal soul) however, you still have your conscience, the Traditions of The Church, the light that God has given you and your mind! Judging a situation or the effects of an action in light of your Christian Conscience is not wrong! We do not condemn others, but we still have to judge so that we can follow the path of Truth in accordance with our conscience. The choices that we make, based on our own judgments is the "fear and trembling part" of our salvation. We know if something is right or wrong and we act accordingly. We must make a stand for Truth! This is done in Faith, Love and hope (and a lot of prayer!)
1 Cor 6:3
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
KJV

InXC,
Seraphim

[acceraStoof]

Dear Effie:
You are more capable than you think! and you are right not to judge (meaning that you do not take The Lord's place in determining the state of their eternal soul) however, you still have your conscience, the Traditions of The Church, the light that God has given you and your mind! Judging a situation or the effects of an action in light of your Christian Conscience is not wrong! We do not condemn others, but we still have to judge so that we can follow the path of Truth in accordance with our conscience. The choices that we make, based on our own judgments is the "fear and trembling part" of our salvation. We know if something is right or wrong and we act accordingly. We must make a stand for Truth! This is done in Faith, Love and hope (and a lot of prayer!)
1 Cor 6:3
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
KJV

InXC,
Seraphim

But, Seraphim, why is it that we are told

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Matthew 7.1-5

But then we also have :

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. (16) You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? (17) Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (18) A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. (19) Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (20) Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Matthew 7:15-20"


My understanding is that we observe, we use our brains, we are cautious as Jesus advised us to be, but we leave judgement to God.

So, how does this relate to our everyday lives? Do we keep quiet? Do we allow unworthy men to continue on their merry way, as the Catholic church has done concerning its pederast priests? What do we do? Are prayer and silence our only options?

What do you think? How do others on this forum interpret the above passages?

Effie

[neirty]

But, Seraphim, why is it that we are told

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Matthew 7.1-5

But then we also have :

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. (16) You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? (17) Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (18) A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. (19) Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (20) Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Matthew 7:15-20"


My understanding is that we observe, we use our brains, we are cautious as Jesus advised us to be, but we leave judgement to God.

So, how does this relate to our everyday lives? Do we keep quiet? Do we allow unworthy men to continue on their merry way, as the Catholic church has done concerning its pederast priests? What do we do? Is prayer and silence our only options?

What do you think? How do others on this forum interpret the above passages?

Effie


Dear Effie,

I struggle with this every second. It is so hard to keep quiet. When I do I feel guilty and then think in my mind I should of said something. I would love to know the answer to this.

Nina,

What you say makes sense. It's good to hear comforting words from you. But I had no idea saying something positive is wrong. I understand not to say somethings for pride, but also saying nice things to someone is praising them, which is good for them. Not over doing it though!

Maybe some of our priests on this forum can shed some light on this subject.

In Christ
+Angela

[Asianunta]

My understanding is that we observe, we use our brains, we are cautious as Jesus advised us to be, but we leave judgement to God.

So, how does this relate to our everyday lives? Do we keep quiet? Do we allow unworthy men to continue on their merry way, as the Catholic church has done concerning its pederast priests? What do we do? Is prayer and silence our only options?

What do you think? How do others on this forum interpret the above passages?

Effie

Dear Effie,

I agree with you and of course with the passages from NT you quote and also I try to keep in my mind the saying of Christ: "Be wise as snakes and pure as doves." (please excuse the paraphrasing). So I agree that we need a balanced approach.

As Angela says I also struggle with this issue as I am sure most of us do because it cuts as a knife in the heart when such things are happening in our Church. But I try to remember that I am worse and leave it at that.

A balanced approach is that of Geronda Paisios, who when approached by some people who were concerned about what Patriarch Athenagora was doing and were complaining and said that they pray to God to take Athenagora so the Church would not suffer and be harmed by him, Geronda Paisios with his divine peace replied: "My sons I too pray for Patriarch Athenagora. I pray that God takes days from my own life and gives them to him so he can have time to repent in this life and not perish." (I have the Greek book but if someone has the English trans. can provide page reference.)

This response takes not into account what we feel, but the endless love of God. I am not saying I am like Geronda Paisios, but when I read his words on the matter it was a real eye-opener. Because all souls are His children. Why would I ask forgiveness and mercy from God for myself and be strict with the sin of others, whatever that might be? God gave us a great parable about this, (the one of the debtors). Also we state this truth in the prayer God taught us: "Our Father Who art in Heaven..."

On the other hand I am not saying we should follow heretics. You can read that St. Mark Eugenikos is one of my favorite saints because he defied the heretics in the Church with the love of God and his firm stance and loyalty to dogma. All Pillars of Orthodoxy are my favorite saints and I am convinced and believe in what they teach.

We need to pray and to ask God to do His Holy Will in our daily lives. He will not let us down. He will not abandon us.

Nina,

But I had no idea saying something positive is wrong. I understand not to say somethings for pride, but also saying nice things to someone is praising them, which is good for them. Not over doing it though!

Maybe some of our priests on this forum can shed some light on this subject.

In Christ
+Angela

Dear Angela,

I think it is a little misunderstanding. I did not mean being polite, nice, gentle, sincerely praising etc. to others (by all means we should). But judging, even in a positive way.

While I am not a priest, what I was taught and what I read from Fathers (sorry I can not recall now but if I come across texts I will post them for you) is that: any kind of judging, be that negative, or positive, is judging.

When I say "Oh that person is an angel because he has such a good heart, soul etc." I am judging. God says and Fathers repeat that we have no idea what really is in the heart of a person. We know nothing. Often we do not even know our own selves. Only God knows everything and everyone and has foreknowledge. That is why.

[w4HPpbSW]

But, Seraphim, why is it that we are told

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me take the speck out of your eye," when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Matthew 7.1-5

But then we also have :

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. (16) You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? (17) Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (18) A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. (19) Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (20) Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Matthew 7:15-20"


My understanding is that we observe, we use our brains, we are cautious as Jesus advised us to be, but we leave judgement to God.

So, how does this relate to our everyday lives? Do we keep quiet? Do we allow unworthy men to continue on their merry way, as the Catholic church has done concerning its pederast priests? What do we do? Are prayer and silence our only options?

What do you think? How do others on this forum interpret the above passages?

Effie

I think the issue for many is the word judge. It conjures up in the mind an image of a man in black robes pronouncing a sentence on a criminal. At the end of a man's life he will be judged by God Himself, this is for certain! (and this id the judging that we are warned not to do!) We are not to look at someone and condemn them as a bad person deserving of hell. However it is just foolishness to think that you can look at "any" situation and not "see" the right or the wrong of it! You know because of your own conscience if someone is doing right or wrong! We "must" see the truth and then leave the judging to God. We are allowed to pray for such a one however! Perhaps pray that The Lord will open their eyes! Pray that they will come to their senses! Pray that God will forgive their sins and at the same time know that we ourselves are filled with sin and passions Kyrie Eleision!

InXC,
Seraphim

[acceraStoof]

I think the issue for many is the word judge. It conjures up in the mind an image of a man in black robes pronouncing a sentence on a criminal. At the end of a man's life he will be judged by God Himself, this is for certain! (and this id the judging that we are warned not to do!) We are not to look at someone and condemn them as a bad person deserving of hell. However it is just foolishness to think that you can look at "any" situation and not "see" the right or the wrong of it! You know because of your own conscience if someone is doing right or wrong! We "must" see the truth and then leave the judging to God. We are allowed to pray for such a one however! Perhaps pray that The Lord will open their eyes! Pray that they will come to their senses! Pray that God will forgive their sins and at the same time know that we ourselves are filled with sin and passions Kyrie Eleision!

InXC,
Seraphim

Yes, a very good post, James. Your words have made things clearer in my mind. Thank you! Nina referred to Elder Paisios in her message and I also remember this remark in one of the many books I have about him. What kind of man would say something like this? Only a very holy man. He asked God to take days from his own life and give them to someone he disapproved of, with the sole purpose of allowing this man more time to repent. He didn't close his eyes to the man's faults, he didn't tell himself that the man was OK and everything he knew was just his imagination, instead he felt love and pity for him in spite of his knowledge.