[Piediahef]

The BBC news website today reports that 130 Muslim scholars have written to all the main Christian leaders - the RC Pope, the Orthodox Patriarchs, the Archbishop of Canterbury, etc - appealing for greater understanding and improved relations between the two faiths. There is a link to the full text of the letter.

See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7038992.stm

[finnmontserrat]

The BBC news website today reports that 130 Muslim scholars have written to all the main Christian leaders - the RC Pope, the Orthodox Patriarchs, the Archbishop of Canterbury, etc - appealing for grater understanding and impreoved relations between the two faiths. There is a link to the full text of the letter.

See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7038992.stm

While I don't believe this letter will make any particular difference to current Muslim-Christian relations, I agree that greater understanding is needed; not just of respective theologies but also the myriad of cultures within which they are expressed (and where theology and culture differ).

As for the notion that we worship the same God, this is not some kind of olive-branch but something Islam has always taught, for without this idea Muhammad would have no legitimacy has a prophet.

From a Christian perspective I suppose it comes down to what you mean by "the same." To what extent must a heretical understanding of God differ from our own before it becomes a different God? Is the Trinity of the filioque a different God? The Sabellian God of Pentacostalism? The monad of the Jews and Muslims?

I have a feeling Christian leaders will accept the notion based on this 'technicality' rather than rejecting it altogether. How wise that would be is another issue.

[Impariclainna]

I have a feeling Christian leaders will accept the notion based on this 'technicality' rather than rejecting it altogether. How wise that would be is another issue.

I think it would be wise to follow the moto of this site and adhere to "patristic" teaching on this subject.

I'm pretty sure the orthodox church has been dealing with Islam for centuries. I don't see a reason to approach them any differently than we have before. They havn't offered us any "new" information in this letter.

..I won't go into what I personally think of the letter..

[Piediahef]

It must be impossible to avoid a response which is not conditioned by a person's situation. If you're a Greek in Istanbul or a Copt in Egypt, or a Serb in Kosovo, your response will be different from that of someone living in Germany, England or the USA.

I'm not so sure Christians and Muslims do worship the 'same God'. If the Trinity is rejected, how then is God the same?

[DF9sLGSU]

Dear Andreas,

It seems pretty clear, as you imply, that we do not worship 'the same God', and their letter puts much emphasis on the 'oneness' of God. So, theologically, as well as factually, the statement is untrue.

Then there is the other aspect of this letter. If those subscribing to it are 'moderates' then to reject it would be to play into the hands of the extremists, who would be able to say that we Christians are still 'crusaders' at heart. So it would seem politic, as well as polite, to give an equally vague but warm response - and see what happens then.

In Christ,

John

[12Cickprior]

We worship the flesh and blood of Christ. This is a horrible heresy in the eyes of Muslims. We believe in the unity of the created and uncreated within Christ, and from this the ablility for men to become gods. Besides the more esoteric groups within Islam, this is something they would be extremely angry with.

Does anyone know which sects within Islam are most hospitable and kind to Christians, especially Orthodox ones?

[Abebpabeniemo]

Moslems do not worship our God. Moslems have not changed their position but I fear Christians have. I am not against dialogue and I know Palestine Christians who lived happily with Moslem neighbours until the latter were stirred up by militants. The same I heard from Bosnia and SE Bulgaria. "We lived together but now we are divided by Jihad'.

[somozasayre]

Would one say that both Jews and Muslims don't worship the Trinitarian God?

[Piediahef]

Does anyone know which sects within Islam are most hospitable and kind to Christians, especially Orthodox ones? The Sufi mystics have some close similarities with Orthodox spirituality, and though I know really nothing about this, I have read that, during the Middle Ages, there were cross currents of thought so that it is not always clear who influenced whom.

Would one say that both Jews and Muslims don't worship the Trinitarian God? Yes. The Jews do not expect the Messiah to have a divine nature - he will be a man. There is a long tradition of Jews and Christians trading interpretations of the many Messianic prophecies in the OT. When one reads what the Jews expect the Messiah to be, one wonders if they are describing antiChrist?

[aAaBecker]

Dear Andreas,



The Sufi mystics have some close similarities with Orthodox spirituality, and though I know really nothing about this, I have read that, during the Middle Ages, there were cross currents of thought so that it is not always clear who influenced whom. Net.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[finnmontserrat]

Does anyone know which sects within Islam are most hospitable and kind to Christians, especially Orthodox ones?

Given its non-sacrimental nature Islam does not really have denominations as they exist within Christianity. Some exist, but these are usually very small groups on the fringes of Islam. Rather there are two main streams - Sunni and Shi'a - with varying schools of thought present in each.

Of the two I suppose the Shi'a would be the branch most akin to Christianity, although I think hospitality and kindness will vary greatly depending on which location and moment in history you're looking at - I don't believe it has much to do with their respective theologies.

As Andreas notes, the Sufi mystics have much in common with Orthodox monasticism. However, Sufism is an expression that exists within varying forms of Islam and is not a denomination or sect as such (I suppose in the same way that there is Catholic monasticism, Orthodox monasticism, Nestorian monasticism, etc. without monasticism itself being a Christian sect).

[GrileVege]

Dear Brethren!

These poor Koran-scholars, poor because they don't know about the true nature of God, have written this letter in another attempt of Satan to get hold of the rests of Christianity in the world today. where they write that there are certain terms to be fulfilled ahead of a better living together of the Religions. Where is the fundament on what they allow to lay terms in front of eventual dialogue?
I don't think that a dialogue doesn't bring anything new, then we are talking with the unbelievers through centuries and it didn't bring up anything, just pauses where they were able to gain strength and plan further attacks on Christians, which they are to exterminate as being said!

As they are the children of Satan we are the most hospitably to them where we just ignore them being in our cities and countries.

With the Jews and the way they see the Messias, there are many different scholls here and it is always nice to discuss with those who will on the basis of the scriptures (is Pentateuch, Prophets and so on).

Christos voskrese! Nicolaj

[aAaBecker]

As Andreas notes, the Sufi mystics have much in common with Orthodox monasticism.
I must say I'm rather shocked and really saddened that such things can be said or are even allowed to be said on a site about Orthodoxy.


In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

[acceraStoof]

2 excerpts from the letter :

"As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is not against them - so long as they do not wage war against Muslims on account of their religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes," the letter says.

It adds: "To those who nevertheless relish conflict and destruction for their own sake or reckon that ultimately they stand to gain through them, we say our very eternal souls are all also at stake if we fail to sincerely make every effort to make peace and come together in harmony."

As long as this is a sincere effort to find some common ground i.e. the wish for peace, I find it commendable. The two religions are not the same as everyone here knows. However, in theory, Christians are respected by Muslims and call us, children of the book.

However I would be extremely cautious because even though the leaders of the Muslim faith might be reaching out, here in Greece where there are hundreds of tiny isolated churches, Albanian Muslims have been breaking in, desecrating them, and stealing whatever they can lay their hands on. No respect at all.

And we all know what the Muslims have done to the Orthodox churches and monasteries in Kosovo. I'm sorry but I do not trust them when they are in power in a country. The last few years have been very educational in that we have seen just how they regard Christianity. I have not heard of Christians doing the same things to mosques.

Effie

[Piediahef]

I must say I'm rather shocked and really saddened that such things can be said or are even allowed to be said on a site about Orthodoxy. Some time ago, I wrote in a post, 'asceticism does not mean owning nothing: it means making sure that nothing owns you'. Some members liked it. I didn't point out at the time that this was said by a medieval Sufi. If we have some discussion here about our Orthodox Christian faith and Islam, and some similarities, even if they are based upon different foundations, are noted, I can't say that I find that shocking and sad. Neither do I find it encouraging. I'm sure we here are all secure enough in our faith not to be disturbed by the sort of statement which drew this observation from Matthew P. I should be shocked and saddened if we were not allowed such an observation as I made, particularly bearing in mind it was not an opinion of mine but the recollection of something I had read about the history of Orthodox spirituality.

[finnmontserrat]

I must say I'm rather shocked and really saddened that such things can be said or are even allowed to be said on a site about Orthodoxy.

Do not think that I was equating the two in any way, for one is Christocentric while the other is void of His Grace and Truth. I was simply recognising the fact that Sufi expressions of Islam have been greatly (of course words like 'much' and 'great' are entirely relative) influenced by Orthodox (particularly Syrian) monasticism.

[texbrease]

Quote: 'And we all know what the Muslims have done to the Orthodox churches and monasteries in Kosovo.'

Honestly, Effie, it's easy to have double standards. Serbs murdered thousands of Albanian Kosovars in the last ethnic conflict. This doesn't mean that the Serbian Orthodox Church was in any way involved with this, despite the fact that most Serbs are nominally Orthodox. Can we honestly purport to say that the reaction of ethnically Albanian Kosovars, horrible and as unjustified as the treatment they themselves received, is an official islamic policy? Without wanting to sound polemical, I pray for those Bosnian 'Muslim' and Kosovar 'Muslim' families that have been destroyed during the last Balkan conflict, as much as I pray for Serb families who have suffered similarly,
love from middle-class liberal anglo-saxon Simon

[acceraStoof]

Quote: 'And we all know what the Muslims have done to the Orthodox churches and monasteries in Kosovo.'

Honestly, Effie, it's easy to have double standards. Serbs murdered thousands of Albanian Kosovars in the last ethnic conflict. This doesn't mean that the Serbian Orthodox Church was in any way involved with this, despite the fact that most Serbs are nominally Orthodox. Can we honestly purport to say that the reaction of ethnically Albanian Kosovars, horrible and as unjustified as the treatment they themselves received, is an official islamic policy? Without wanting to sound polemical, I pray for those Bosnian 'Muslim' and Kosovar 'Muslim' families that have been destroyed during the last Balkan conflict, as much as I pray for Serb families who have suffered similarly,
love from middle-class liberal anglo-saxon Simon

I was not referring to the political situation in the area, I was saying that Muslims have destroyed churches and monasteries in the Kosovo area.

What is the point of targeting Orthodox buildings? Isn't it religious?

Effie

[texbrease]

I was not referring to the political situation in the area, I was saying that Muslims have destroyed churches and monasteries in the Kosovo area.

What is the point of targeting Orthodox buildings? Isn't it religious?

Effie

Dear Effie,
I may not have been clear. I felt that the Albanians who desecrate churches in Greece would be better defined as delinquents than Muslims, in the same way that those Orthodox Christians involved in the massacre at Srebrenica would be better defined as war criminals.
If a group of Muslims has proposed better relations with Cristians, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. They were brought up in an environment where the Christian message was taboo. However, God will not be blind when a Muslim gives alms, forgives his neighbour or loves his enemy, just as He won't be if one of us does the opposite.
Patriarch Pavel of Serbia was asked in an interview if he had had problems living with other religious communities in Bosnia or Kossovo. He replied with words to the effect that religion is what you are on the outside, not what you really are inside, and the that the only certain thing is that a man's existence is not cancelled at the moment of death.
If I am not deeply mistaken, we Orthodox pray for the salvation of all of humanity - so Fr. Mathew of Vatopaidi on Mt. Athos told me. I try to use my faith to be a slightly less awful sinner than I would otherwise be, and on occasional moments to bathe in a spiritual bath of bliss, which I take to be an answer to sincere implorations to Theotikos to make me feel better. And to live in as much harmony with other human beings as I am able to.
I am unable and unwilling to shake off the spirit of tolerance and mutual respect I was brought up with before becoming Orthodox, and as Patriarch Pavel seems to say, I try to think of people as people, not as Orthodox or Muslim or RC, or whatever.

Effie, where do you live in Greece? I love Thessaloniki so much, I'm seriously thinking of leaving Italy and moving there!

Love,

Simon

[acceraStoof]

Dear Effie,
I may not have been clear. I felt that the Albanians who desecrate churches in Greece would be better defined as delinquents than Muslims, in the same way that those Orthodox Christians involved in the massacre at Srebrenica would be better defined as war criminals.
If a group of Muslims has proposed better relations with Cristians, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. They were brought up in an environment where the Christian message was taboo. However, God will not be blind when a Muslim gives alms, forgives his neighbour or loves his enemy, just as He won't be if one of us does the opposite.

Effie, where do you live in Greece? I love Thessaloniki so much, I'm seriously thinking of leaving Italy and moving there!

Love,

Simon

Yes, Simon. You are right when you say that these Albanians are delinquents first and Muslim second. And as I also said, if this group of Muslims is sincerely trying to reach out a hand of friendship then I am in agreement. I am also saying though that we should be cautious. Christians are not the fanatics that some Muslims are. If I as a woman were to go to certain Muslim countries and not dress the way their women do, I would be in danger of going to gaol. Greek women who visit these countries in their role as business women are obligated to change their manner of dress.

Simon, I live in North west Greece, in West Macedonia. It is really beautiful here. I visit Thessaloniki regularly - it is only 1 1/2 hrs by car - but have to admit that when driving back through our mountains I take a deep breath of mountain air and am happy to be going home.

To reach Thessaloniki I have to do through Veria, and no matter how many times I remind myself to visit St. Paul's church which is built on the spot where St. Paul is said to have preached the Gospel, I haven't been able to yet. We did visit once but my husband couldn't find a parking space because the roads were so narrow and most of them one-way, so we just kept driving.

It is something I have promised myself to do.

effie