[Anydayhybeall]

Dear Mina,

So you don't believe in Christ's injunction to forgive your enemies?

Best regards,

Mariusz

[T5qYkHWQ]

Dear Mina,

Firstly, allow me to apolologise for having thought you were female (and a nun at that!). Had your name been written as "Minas", I would never have made the mistake, since Minas is not only a famous saint, but also a very manly name in Greek!

I once met a Copt in Cyprus, who introduced himself as Egyptian, and I offended him too by greeting him with "Salaam". I felt very foolish when he told me he was a Christian, as I feel now having given you the impression that I would in any way favour the imperialism of Islam over the most ancient and venerable race of the Copts! Sr Theopesta, on this forum, is also Coptic (I think), and she has been a great source of wisdom and inspiration. We Cypriots had a rather unfortunate skirmish with our "Islamic" neighbours back in 1974 which led to our country being divided in two, so believe me when I say I have no reason to favour either the Islamic faith or the "culture", a word which I use here in the broadest possible sense as any form of collective human expression.

Nevertheless, I do agree with Mariusz that we should forgive our enemies, and even love them. This does not mean lying down and letting your country be pillaged or your people be killed, but it means never forgetting that our neighbours are created in the Image of God, just as we are - even when they are behaving like demons! From what little I've heard about it, Copts have had a very bad time in predominantly Muslim Egypt, so your sense of indignation at Prince Charles' omission is understandable. I doubt very much that Charles does not respect and cherish the Coptic people and religion; I think it more likely that he has inherited his father Philip's lack of political acumen.

Your description of the historical episode between Amr-Ibn el Aas and the khaliph Omar Ibn El Khattab is truly depressing. If it is accurate, then they behaved like a couple of barbarians, even if they believed they were doing so in the name of their holy book. Nevertheless, we must judge them not by modern, but by early medieval standards, and ask what equivalent barbarisms our own Christian culture has in its record (Heraclitus doesn't sound very "civilised" by such standards in your description either). Every civilisation in every historical era offers something, and at the same time takes something away from the world. The Muslims transmitted the learning of Aristotle and the Greek philosophers to the West at a time when it was lost (what the RC Church then went ahead to do with this knowledge is another issue). They offered us words and transmitted concepts like "algebra" and "alchemy" (from which modern Chemistry is derived), and our whole numerical system is based on Muslim learning. To say that "Islam has no art" is to deny the beauty of Arabic calligraphy and arabesque design.

I'm not saying I agree with Islamic teachings or the behaviour of Islamic leaders today or in the past. I just hope to convey a sense of keeping things in perspective, appreciating the good while maintaining a critical distance from the bad. I can't see any future without dialogue as an expression of Christian love. But I'm also aware of my speaking from a place of relative safety, since my life is not currently actively in danger. Please forgive me for having given offence, and accept my prayers to our Lord and His Virgin Mother for yourself and your wonderful Coptic culture, which I hope to visit and become acquainted with one day.

In Christ
Byron

[T5qYkHWQ]

P.S. As for those who worship the Devil in the West, they need our help and prayers more than anybody else (though I agree it is also tempting to think they deserve what they've asked for).

[Tij84ye]

sorry,
it is E=Nhf
h=6.46*10^-34 max plank constant

[Styparty]

Dear Mina,

So, in your opinion, the Arabs have never created anything good, beautiful, or useful?

Best regards,

Mariusz

[Tij84ye]

by the way ,
who are arabs ?

[Styparty]

Dear Mina,

I will gladly answer your question but I am still waiting for your answer to my two questions.

As for who are the Arabs, they are the people you have mentioned many times in your postings. Here are the quotes:

"we-Copts- do not hate our arabian conquers ..."

"scientists of chemistry of islam are three: Fkhr el-raazy , Khwarezmy , and Ibn-Sina . and all of them were not arabians from the arabian penninsula ..."

"and because arabians do not know coptic , they thought it is a decor not font"

"islam is the religion of the arabians"

The word "Arabian" does not exist as a noun in the English language, therefore I assumed it means "Arab". But please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Best regards,

Mariusz

[Styparty]

One more thing: the story of the destruction of the great library of Alexandria is not nearly as simple as Mina has suggested. Its collections had been destroyed or dispersed in stages, for one of which the responsibility falls on Theophilus and Cyril, the successive Patriarchs of Alexandria, as well as on a mob of Coptic monks who at the same time murdered Hypatia. More details can be found at
http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/artic les/ArticleView.cfm?AID=9
and
http://www.digital-brilliance.com/k ab/alex.htm

It is a sad but true fact that narrowmindedness, ignorance and fanaticism do appear with a depressing regularity in the history of every religious creed, and Orthodoxy is not exempt from this rule.

Best regards,

Mariusz Wesolowski

[Anydayhybeall]

Dear Mina,

Your narrow-minded and xenophobic attitude precludes any sensible discussion.

Regards,

Mariusz

PS. By the way, I am not Russian and this fact is very easy to guess from my first (and also last) name.

[Immampdah]

Mariuz,

You should be forgiving and patient with Mina, after all, English is not his mother tongue.

Seems you have a tendency to judge us, when after all we were only trying to help.

Such a shame.

Personally, I am glad to be a fool for Christ.

And to repeat: Mohamed is a false prophet and the Koran is a great fall from Grace. (But then again I have no authority, according to you, to speak in such fashion).

Nevertheless, this is an Orthodox board, often we do not agree with the other. But personal attacks, this is really something inappropriate.

You can judge me, and judge Mina. But I certainly pray and I hope you are judging yourself!!! Because if you do not, Christ will, without doubt, ask you about your proclamations of character of others at the Judgement.

Very difficult this plani, prelest, delusion of Schuon...gee, at least Owen said one out of five (becoming a staretz) 'ain't bad'.

I am awaiting a martyrs' death, unworthy though I be, at any moment for stating without reservation that Mohamed is a false Prophet, and the Koran a terrible fall from Grace.

I shouldn't be too hard to find, when the fatwah is issued, by Osama bin Laden, or some more moderate theologian from Saudi Arabia or Egypt.

I am looking forward to it!

To die for Jesus Christ is LIFE indeed.

[T5qYkHWQ]

Dear all,

I would like to wish everyone on the New Calendar on this thread (and everyone on the Old Calendar) a good and beneficial passage through Holy Week to the Resurrection.

Is the Orthodox Church a broad enough Church to have room for both "hawks" and "doves" (I take this avian simile from Bishop Kallistos' book, "The Orthodox Church")? Is it possible that we are all in differing degrees both genuinely Orthodox and personally idiosyncratic (idiorrhythmic?) in our understanding and application of the Scriptures and holy teaching of the Church? Not that we interpret the Scriptures privately; God forbid. Only in the sense that the phronema of the Church may be capable of sustaining a number very different personalities and ways of assimilating and expressing the One Holy, Catholic, Apostolic faith?

Mina, I'm sorry about your uncle.


In Christ
Byron

[Assauraarguck]

Dear Byron,

Certainly your 'avian' reference from Bishop Kallistos is proper and correct.

After all, to use another 'avian' example, (the Baptism of Christ in the Jordan, and the Holy Spirit appearing in the form of a dove) it is precisely this wondorous transformation of being from existing as just 'fallen' individuals and by the Grace of the Holy Spirit transformed into a child of Christ, (to use Father Sophrony's terminology) ...'He (Fr. Sophrony) therefore prefers to use "hypostasis" in order to distinguish this concept of personhood. To express the basis of personhood in God's image and that is inherent in all humans he often uses the expression "hypostatic principle"...Fr. Sophrony used to say that if we manage to express correctly what God has revealed to us about the person, then without fail the uniqueness of the Church's tradition - as compared to all the religious, philosophical, psychological and other schools of thought we meet in the contemporary world - will be made apparent...According to Old Testament and Christian revelation, the Absolute Being is personal. From the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation, we see the Triune God, "thinking [Judith: 9:5] the world and Adam, creating them, and preserving and maintaining His creation - and not least, revealing Himself and saving mankind. All this is the work of the Holy Trinity: the work of the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit [cf., Ps: 32/33: 6,9]

(quoted from: ANAPHORA STIN THEOLOGIA TOU GERONTOS SOFRONIOU - Archimandriti Zacharou).

[PRengine]

Byron wote:

Is the Orthodox Church a broad enough Church to have room for both "hawks" and "doves" (I take this avian simile from Bishop Kallistos' book, "The Orthodox Church")? Indeed the Church would die without this. Were not Sts Peter and Paul very different in character and yet both fully Apostles of Christ? This was reflected in both their active witness within the Church and even through their weaknesses. St. Paul even refers to his weakness as playing a most crucial role in his understanding of what it means to be a true follower of Christ, "My [ie Christ's] strength is made perfect in [or through our human] weakness." I think we can see this in our struggle to come to terms with our own weakness and sin. We see through experience that Christ's grace works most powerfully only insofar as we recognise and acknowledge our own weakness and sin. The connection here to humility and the countless examples Christ provides in the Gospels to this should be obvious.

Somehow there is also some sort of intimate connection between discovering what humility is and coming to terms with our own personal place within the Church. Of course the danger is that this becomes an excuse for self-will but we're not talking about that. Rather we mean that besides the humility needed in regard to outward events there is also a humility needed in regards to how Christ leads each of us towards Himself. How opposite this is to the world's message of "I did it my way!" Rather it comes down to becoming sensitive and aquiescent to how God is leading each of us within His One Church like the Theotokos' "yes" to the Archangel Gabriel. But really we're talking about obedience here aren't we?

In Christ- Fr Raphael

[Roorseprate]

I have been struggling to decide wether or not to add my opinion to the discussion. I however find myself regularly thinking about the turn this topic has made, so have found myself drawn to offering my thoughts. Perhaps this is a temptation, so forgive me if this is just me giving in to it.

I actually have to respectfully AGREE with much of what Mariusz has been trying to get at. Perhaps his language and attitude is overly bold, but is this really such a bad thing? To circle around the subject by trying to keep our words from speaking the truth is in my opinion a denial of faith. I do not believe that the language barrier is really the problem here. There is a difference of opinion, and Mariusz refuses to just back down from his by using words that would be more "politically correct" or even "religiously correct". I will not delve deeper into this at this time. It is enough to say that I see nothing wrong with his methods and langauge.

As to the arguments that were traded, I have to take a step back and look increduously at you all for just accepting much of what Mina has offered in the last few posts. I will not argue individual points, because honestly I have not read many of the books he has quoted, or many of the counter arguments he has cited on website credibility. I will say though, that if you will argue other people's reference credibility, it is on YOU to prove your OWN credibility. Listing books we have never heard of or will find hard to come by does not lift you above the credibility line. Give us information we can access, read, and THEN discuss with you. This is what I ask.

Finally, I will say this. To say that an entire race/religion of people has offered NOTHING of value to this world is incredible. To even say that Islam has offered nothing to the Orthodox faith is just plain wrong! Ever heard of the millet system during Ottoman occupation of the balkan peninsula? If the Ottoman empire had not give us freedom of religion (which no other occupying power did) we would all have undoubtedly lost our nations, cultures and most importantly faith. Yes over 500 years our hair color may have changed, but even after half a century, my people stood up for their faith which had been unbroken that entire time. Thanks to the very people who had butchered us, enslaved us, but in the end given us an uncomparable gift. We would be wrong to believe that any Greek, Bulgarian, Romanian or Serb would still be Orthodox today had it not been for this gift.

I do not know the exact details of every event that has happened in the African continent or Middle Eastern states. Perhaps your history Mina has been one that has warped your vision of Islam. Ours however has not been the same. Many of us have to say from pure truth that Islam is not all bad. It HAS offered us much. Perhaps this is an overstatement, but that is why Mariusz has asked, "in your opinion they have never created anything good?" It us on US to understand where Mina is coming from. IT is also our duty to show him OUR history and experience. This is what I believe Mariusz was trying to do, to understand just as Mina is trying to see our side. Incredibly, nobody else has really stood up for our experience; which is why I believe I have been thinking about this so much.

Perhaps we should all be asking all the questions our friend here has; perhaps we should be asking MORE such questions.

I will begin by asking what each of us has experienced invdividually from Muslims that surround us. I can say without hesitation that the faith of Muslims around me for God and the good that they attempt to bring to the world around them puts me as a Christian to shame. They recoil at the thought of the terrorism that is rampant throughout their faith. My best friend, who is Muslim, speaks of how every religion defines the three of the greatest sins as: Suicide, Murder and Discrespect towards Parents and God. He they says, is not the terrorism performed by my Muslim brethren not a violation of all three of these?!?

Another question: Perhaps historically a lot of what 'arab' people claim is theirs really isn't. How many of our cultures can really claim anything as ours? Is there really such a disparity between the way Islamic cultures go about their business and the way ours do?

I will post more questions as I get replies and so forth.

Mina, this is in no way an attack on your information or idea's. In fact, I plan on researching each and every point you have made, and I thank you for that motivation! It is always good to explore historical truths; especially ones that explore your faith! I will say though that as I pointed out above, we have not had your experience. For us things were different. I hope that you take the time to explore this as well. Islam is not all bad. This is not an opinion, this is just truth.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

S Bogom,
~Bogdan

[xanaxnewtrader]

Technically Catholics come from our "tree" as fruits, so does your analogy apply to us and the catholics as well?

[xanaxnewtrader]

Even heresy has it's uses. It helps us keep our eyes keen and centered on God. But these points are irrelevant and philosophical in nature. Let us therefore focus back on the central point.

Boulos,
Are you trying to insinuate as many others are here that Islam has "no good fruit"? I am not sure exactly how "good" their fruit is. Perhaps it is bittersweet? I am not sure. I am not a fan of many Islamic principles, especially the extremist ones we are more than commonly aware of. However, you have not answered my questions above. What is your personal experience with Islam? ..I have stated mine.

The general decision of right/wrong is one I am most definitely not fit to make. The question is one I leave mostly to God. Judgement is his..until then, I will continue to try and be a good Christian, leaning on those who even if not Christian, posses the Faith that will motivate my own. If my Islamic friends give me this, is this not "good fruit"?

[asypecresty]

Prince Charles in northern Greece for visit to monastic sanctuary

[FrereeDoulley]

At the service of blessing following his civil marriage to Camilla Parker-Bowles he had the Creed sang in Russian.

[CamVideoQl]

Islam is not all bad. It HAS offered us much Certainly people who sufferd from the sickness of the Islamic religion have produced good things, culture, art, etc. They produced such things despite the evil influence of a false religion and not because of it. The human spirit, in the image of God is hard to submerge completly, even those in false religions can have that shine through so to speak. What people dont have art, poetry, and examples of kindness and compassion.. even the people enslaved to the most evil of religions like the cananites who sacrificed their own children had such. That doesnt however reflect positivily on their religion or God/s.

There was a time when I was very interested in Islam.. specifically Sufi and Shiite mysticism. but now its obvious to me that "the Prophet" was suffering from demonic delusion and that his God was never the real God (the Holy Trinity). Some of the things he did and advocated are rather disturbing to say the least.. sex with little girls, giveing moral laws that apply to everyone except himself, takeing peoples wives, makeing a living as a bandit stealing and pillageing etc...