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Old 03-28-2006, 08:00 AM   #21
jamemeveRhype

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Hi,
Now if having "good intentions" are that good then why do people with "good intentions" often hurt others?

I think that everyone on earth has good intentions.

In fact even criminals might, in their own twisted minds, have good intentions.

* For instance, Hitler wanted to improve the conditions of his own country by wiping out the rest of the world. Look at how succesful Germany is today.
* Bin Laden wanted a better world... a world without Americans.
* The Western Christian Crusades wanted to see a successful spread of good Christian values by slaughtering the opposition.
* The North Korean government wants to be a stronger nation by making and possessing nuclear weapons.

So what is the definition of "a good intention"?

Obviuosly as Christians we have to have live a Christocentric life in order to approach the goodness of Christ.

Our Prototype is Christ. Our intentions to be like Him are the only "good intentions" that God would accept as being good. Every other intentions which are secular, worldly and selfish are bad.

So fooling ourselves into thinking that some people have good intentions where in reality they are bad can actually be harmful for us. Our paradigm, our model, our prototype is lost by the example of these "good intenders" who are in fact "bad intenders".

May God's will be done.

Peace in Christ,

Kosmas}
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Old 04-06-2006, 08:00 AM   #22
LarryG1978

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Default Wikipedia notice to everyone
Hey guys and gals!!!

Christ is Risen!!!

I was reading this encyclopedia dictionary site on the internet and I felt quite upset by some entries accusing us Orthodox of Iconoltry, Paganism, Idolatry, etc etc.

The good thing is that we can freely edit this site...so if you have spare time and would rather have people reading an un-biased opinion of Christian Orthodoxy, If you have the knowledge and time or know somone who has researched a particular topic, please help fix the problem. I tried to fix some entries already.

A good idea is to save the previous entry in case you delete it by accident.

They even said that the term Idol comes from Latin instead of Greek, unbelievable!!!

Please go here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry

in Christ

Kosma
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Old 04-14-2006, 08:00 AM   #23
penpizdes

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> I agree. This is the true meaning. > > I like Emanuel Kant's "Categorical Imperative", that one should > measure all of their actions by examining what would happen if thus > and so action became universal law. Would the result be for the good > or for the evil? > Vasilis
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Old 04-16-2006, 08:00 AM   #24
XarokLasa

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Kosmas originally posted:-

>> "I guess we would have to rewrite whole pages about our Orthodox History which is usually taking a western perspective." <<

Hi Kosmas,

I'm not sure I understand this comment. Please clarify your meaning of "the Western perspective" of Orthodoxy. Thanks.

humbly,
Theophilus
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Old 04-20-2006, 08:00 AM   #25
kKFB1BxX

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Sabine is a popular name in Germany as well as France, and I have a friend of that name for whom I would also ask your prayers. There is a St Sabina who was an early Roman martyr and has a church named after her in Rome; her feast day is 29th August. The only information I have been able to find about her is here.
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Old 04-25-2006, 08:00 AM   #26
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Dear John Michael,

Your post was a fresh of breath air to me... I too cannot grasp many of the doctrinal points that are posted on this site. Those people who do are well educated and have been graced by God. However, the beauty of the message of Christ is that you don't necessarily need to have command of the nuances of theology, but rather follow the way of Christ and allow Him to enter your heart in prayer. He gives us understanding without the need for explanation.

Luke 18:17 "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it"

As for your child, I will pray for her.

in humilty and love,
Antonios
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Old 05-06-2006, 08:00 AM   #27
LarryG1978

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I hope you visited the wikipedia pages and read what they say about Orthodoxy. I changed some things aboyut "idolatry" and "idols". I also changed some parts in "Icons". I may have to read the Church History to see if there is any bias there.

I guess we would have to rewrite whole pages about our Orthodox History which is usualy taking a western perspective.
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Old 05-09-2006, 08:00 AM   #28
penpizdes

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> One should take into consideration that 40+% of Latin is taken from Greek. > Vasilis
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Old 05-24-2006, 08:00 AM   #29
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About Cornelius the centurion the Acts of the Apostles says that he was, "an upright & God-fearing man, who is well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation." (Acts 10:22). It does not appear he was a Jew. This is especially so as this account is immediately preceded by Peter's vision of the sheet with unclean animals which symbolises God's command for Peter to minister to the gentiles.
In any case I think this is a very special example of how God's providence may work in relation to those who are not exactly members of the Church.
In Christ- Fr Raphael
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Old 06-01-2006, 08:00 AM   #30
penpizdes

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> On 29 May,1453 Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks. The horrors of that day have continued to the present. The Genocide of the Asia Minor Greeks and the pogroms of 1955 have destroyed Hellenism in the lands of Asia Minor and Constantinople. Today, Cyprus suffers under Turkish occupation, and the Hellenism of Macedonia is challenged by Skopje.

The Grey Wolves continue to attack the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The encroachments upon Greek sovereignty by NATO and the European Union are increasing. Hellenism must survive, and history must not be forgotten. Enclosed below are

1) A tribute to the martyrdom of Emperor Constantinos Palaiologos who fell bravely in battle against the Ottomans.

2) Historical recollections of the horrors that ensued when the City fell.

3) An essay recalling the Fall of Constantinople.

1) Tribute to Constantinos XI Palaiologos

"There is one more warrior prince whose official status as an Orthodox saint may be somewhat in dispute, but whose examplary piety and courage in a hopeless battle against Muslim adversaries has special resonance in the post "nine-eleven" world. Blessed Constantine XI Palaiologos, last Emperor of Byzantium, perished in defense of Constantinople on May 29, 1453.

The Virtue of War

by

Alexander F.C. Webster and Darrell Cole

"They remembered that dreadful Tuesday, a day that all true Greeks still know to be of ill omen; but their spirits tingled and their courage rose as they told of the last Christian Emperor standing in the breach, abandoned by his western allies, holding the infidel at bay till their numbers overpowered him and he died, with the Empire as his winding sheet."

The Fall of Constantinople 1453 by

Sir Steven Runciman

"The Emperor Constantine, simple, kind, brave, and straightforward, had gained the sympathy and admiration of all who had witnessed his wonderful patience, forbearance, and untiring devotion to the public interests. All present at that last Council were all animated by the deepest personal regard for the unhappy sovereign. Some of the statesmen again brought before the Council the proposal that the interests of the Empire required the Emperor and his Court to leave the City immediately, in as much as so long the Emperor lived there was hope that the Capital if lost now, might one day be regained."

The Prelate, who was at the head of the Clergy, the Patriarch Gregory having apparently in the meantime resigned his office, supported with great decision that proposition. He said, "The servants of the altar saw unmistakable signs that it was God's will the City should now fall; but God's providence was unsearchable, and it might please Him to remember his people in mercy. If the Imperial City could not be saved, let the Emperor be saved! The Emperor should live, because in his person are centered the hopes of his people. We must all bow to the decree of the Almighty, whose mercy might return to our people as it had returned to Israel in olden times."

"Then the Prelates pressed him to leave the City without delay, and the whole Council implored him to comply with this advice. After all who wished to speak had spoken, the Emperor addressed them in a quiet but resolute tone:

My friends, if it is God's will that our City shall fall, can we escape his wrath? How many Emperors great and glorious, before me have had to suffer and die for their country! Shall I be the one to flee from it? No, I will stay and die here with you."

Constantine Last Emperor of the Greeks

by

Chedomil Mijatovich

"His companions fell, and sword in hand, amid the oncoming crowd of Janissaries and Sipahis, Constantine met the end that befitted a Roman Emperor and a faithful soldier of Christ."

The Byzantine Empire

by

Edward A. Foord

"God forbid that I should live an Emperor without an Empire. As my city falls, I will fall with it."

"Whoever wished to escape, let him save himself if he can; and whoever is ready to face death, let him follow me!"

The Crescent and the Cross

by

David Dereksen





"The spot ought to be hallowed to everyone who respects faithfulness to duty and patriotism, and who has sympathy with the single hearted hero of a great historic tragedy. The slab covers the remains of the last Greek Emperor, the patriotic and brave Constantine Dragesses."

Serb Ambassador to Britain Chedomil Mijatovich on alleged burial site of Constantinos in his book "Constantine Last Emperor of the Greeks

"Constantine told his hearers that the great assault was about to begin. To his Greek subjects he said that a man should always be ready to die for his faith or for his country or for his family or for his sovereign. Now his people must be prepared to die for all four causes. He spoke of the glories and the high traditions of the great imperial city. He spoke of the perfidy of the infidel Sultan who had provoked the war in order to destroy the true faith and to put his false prophet in the seat of Christ. He urged them to remember that they were the descendants of the heroes of ancient Greece and Rome and to be worthy of their ancestors. For his part, he said, he was ready to die for his faith, his city, and his people. He then turned to the Italians, thanking them for the great services that they had rendered and telling of his trust in them for the fighting that was to come. He begged them all, Greeks and Italians alike, not to fear the vast numbers of the enemy and the barbarous devices of fires and of noise designed to alarm them. Let their spirits be high; let them be brave and steadfast. With the help of God they would be victorious."

From Steven Runciman's the Fall of Constantinople 1453

"His father Manuel II, when the Turks were at the gates of Constantinople in 1397, had uttered this prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ let it not come to pass that the great multitude of Christian people should hear it said that it was in the days of the Emperor Manuel that the city, with all its sacred and venerable monuments of the faith, was delivered to the infidel. This was the ultimate misfortune of his son Constantine Palaiologos, the Last Emperor of the Romans. He had prayed that he might be killed rather than live to see the consequences. He was fortunate only in that his last prayer was answered."

The Immortal Emperor

by

Donald Nicol

"An immediate search was ordered to locate the Emperor's body among the heaps of the slain. They washed the heads of many corpses, but the Emperor could not be identified. His body was finally spotted by means of the golden imperial eagles traditionally imprinted on the greaves and shoes of our Emperors. The Sultan rejoiced, became cheerful, and directed some Christians to bury the Emperor's body with imperial honors. Woe to Me! Divine providence should have decreed my death long before this day. My adored, most serene, and memorable emperor was fortynine years, three months, and twenty days when he perished."

From the Chronicle of George Sphrantzes

"I sent two birds to the red apple tree, of which the legends speak. One was killed, the other was hurt, and they never came back to me. Of the marble emperor there is no word, no talk. But grandmothers sing about him to the children like a fairy tale.I sent two birds, two house martins, to the red apple tree. But there they stayed and became a dream..

From the Greek Song, O Marmaromenos Vasilias

"The Sudden noise was horrifying. All along the line of the walls the Turks rushed in to the attack, screaming their battle-cries while drums and trumpets and fifes urged them on. The Christian troops had been waiting silently; but when the watchmen on the towers gave the alarm the Churches near the walls began to ring their bells, and church after church throughout the city took up the warning sound till every belfry was clanging. Three miles away, in the Church of the Holy Wisdom the worshippers knew that the battle had begun. Every man of fighting age returned to his post, and women, nuns amongst them hurried to the walls to help bring up stones and beams to strengthen the defences and pails of water to refresh the defenders. Old folk and children came out of their houses and crowded into the churches, trusting that the saints and angels would protect them."

The Fall of Constantinople 1453

by

Steven Runciman





"As soon as the Turks were inside the City, they began to seize and enslave every person who came their way; all those who tried to offer resistance were put to the sword. In many places the ground could not be seen, as it was covered by heaps of corpses. There were unprecedented events: all sorts of lamentations, countless rows of slaves, consisting of noble ladies, virgins, and nuns, who were being dragged by the Turks by their headgear, hair, and braids out of the shelter of Churches, to the accompaniment of mourning. There was the crying of children, the looting of our sacred and holy buildings. What horror can such sounds cause! The Turks did not hesitate to trample over the body and blood of Christ poured all over the ground and were passing his precious vessels from hand to hand; some were broken to pieces while others, intact, were snatched away".

Eyewitness account from George Sphantzes friend and servant of the last three Palaiologi

"Breaking down the doors with axes (to Aghia Sophia), the Turks entered the church and dragged the fugitives off to slavery. Two by two, the men were tied together with cords, the women with belts, without consideration for age or station. Scenes of indescribable horror ensued. The statues of saints were shorn of their jewels and smashed. The gold and silver church vessels were seized, the altar cloths used for caparisons. Topped with a Janissary's cap, the crucifix was paraded in mockery. The conquerors used the altars as tables; when they themselves had finished eating on them, they turned them over to the horses for feed troughs or used them as beds on which to assault boys and girls."

Mehmet the Conqueror and his time

by

Franz Babinger



Remembering Constantinople

by

Theodoros Georgiou Karakostas Founder, Byzantine Cultural Project

On 29 May 1453 Constantinople, the great Capital of Christendom fell to the Ottoman Turks following a fifty-five day siege. For eleven centuries, the intellectual, religious, and political center of the Byzantine Empire was known as the "God protected City" because of the inability of foreign invaders to conquer it. The conquest of Constantinople by the Crusaders in 1204 was an exception, and ultimately it was this conquest that weakened the foundations of the Byzantine State, and paved the way for the eventual Ottoman conquest.

The history of the Byzantine Empire produced many famous Emperors beginning with Constantine the Great who founded Constantinople, and Justinian who presided over the building of the magnificent Church of Aghia Sophia. This vision of heaven on earth is named in honor of Christ as the name of the Church means literally "Church of the Holy Wisdom." The last Emperor of the City was Constantinos Dragases Palaiologos, the third of five sons born to Emperor Manuel II and his wife the former Serbian Princess Helen Dragases.

The Emperor of Byzantium was considered the Viceroy of God on Earth. Numerous Emperors fought on behalf of the protection and advancement of Christendom. The seventh Century Emperor Heraclius is celebrated for his outstanding military achievements in liberating Jerusalem from the Persians, and for reclaiming the sacred Cross upon which Jesus Christ was crucified. In 678 AD, Emperor Constantine V saved Constantinople and all Europe from the Muslims who attempted to conquer the City by Sea. During the ninth Century, Emperor Nikephoras Phokas waged war against the Arabs and reclaimed Syria.

By the time that Constantinos Palaiologos inherited the throne of Christendom in 1448, most of the Empire had already been lost. The Fourth Crusade and the subsequent Civil Wars in the following century weakened the Empire considerably. Emperor Constantinos Palaiologos who was well admired and respected for his honesty, bravery and kindness, was tragically the weakest of all Emperors politically and militarily.

The ideals of the Byzantine Empire survived the fall of Constantinople. The Russians later declared Moscow to be the "Third Rome" on the basis that the niece of Emperor Constantinos had married Ivan III in 1472, and that Russia was the only land of Orthodox Christendom not conquered by the Sultans. In 1821, the Greeks rose up against the Ottoman yoke and reestablished their freedom. For a century, they began to slowly reverse the Ottoman conquests, but in 1922 as in 1453 they were abandoned and alone. In the city of Smyrna in 1922, there was a remarkable Greek Orthodox cleric named Chrysostom who emulated the example of Emperor Constantinos Palaiologos by refusing to leave his flock when the Turks once more arrived as conquerors, and likewise he suffered and died with his people.

The barbarism of 29 May 1453 was repeated on September 6, 1955 when the Greek community of Constantinople was violently assaulted by murderous mobs. Churches were desecrated in unseakable ways, and the homes and businesses of Greeks were destroyed. The difference of the atrocities of 1453 and 1955 are that the latter atrocities were committed in a nation that was a member of NATO, and the recipient of American aid. Washington continued to support Turkey, and threatened to cut aid to Greece if Athens did not fall into line.

In our own day, the Ecumenical Patriarchate is being assaulted by Turkish criminals acting at the behest of Ankara's criminal leadership. The Patriarch is being burned in effigy, and the Patriarchate is routinely bombed. Unlike the Ottoman period when the Turks were the scourge of Europe, Turkey is today embraced by the European Union, NATO, the United States, and Greece.

From the Serbs of Kosovo to the Greeks of Cyprus, Christianity suffers today from the heirs of the Ottomans. Europe made its accomodation with the Ottoman Empire following the capture of Constantinople. The great powers of our own day have done likewise with Islam in Turkey, Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia, Nagorno-Karabakh.

"And our Lady when she heard it, her eyes filled with tears, And Michael, and Gabriel, they comforted her: Weep not, our lady, and be not tearful, With the passing of years and in time, they'll be ours again
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Old 06-03-2006, 08:00 AM   #31
posimoka

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Christ is Risen!
I read all the posts about the quote " the road to hell is paved with good intensions" and what can I say? In my humble opinion,cause I am just an ignorant youth,it might be right and in the same time it might be wrong.Why?On one hand,and here I am talking from my own experince,sometimes I have the intension to do good to someone dear to my soul,and on the contrary to my good intensoin ,it proves to be wrong.Then ,seeing that I hurt that persone, I ask in my heart God why did it happend like that, since my intensions were good?And the answer comes....Maybe because sometimes I like to play the part of God in other people life,but I can't be God ,cause I don't know what is the best thing to do for that person....And so,my good intensions lead me to my own inner hell,but as Christ once said to Saint Siluan :"Keep your mind in hell,but don't be in despair" I put all my trust in God and pray that He will give me the wisdom,so that whenever I want to do good ,I do it with His blessing,as He please.So, about this qoute,I don't think that it matters where our intension lead us,all that matter is not to make harm to any of our brothers....and if our intensions proved not to achive their good goal,to admit that we are wrong and ask for forforgiveness.It is important if,when we do something good, we do it with God or without Him(and I don't think Hitler did all the good he wanted to do for Germany by consulting God first) Sorry,my message might not have a sense,maybe I was just trying to answer to myself at this question...Once again I ask you to forgive me,cause I really don't know much about the world and I am for sure not in the position to judge other people's intensions as I did with Hitler....
Maybe we should just pray God to be in our hearts each time we want to do god,and whenever we have a question let's ask Him first...and I am sure that He will give us the proper understanding.....
Once again ,forgive me for my post,that it might have no sense,and please pray for me that God puts in my heart what He please.
Love you in Christ,Ana Maria
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Old 06-04-2006, 08:00 AM   #32
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Vasilis originally posted:-

>> Just remember the old saying has much truth, "...the road to hell is paved with good intentions". <<

If I might interject, I must respectly disagree with this. Personally, I can see no truth in this at all. Intentions are aspirations, and good aspirations purify the heart. This is the essence of the Jesus Prayer. There is more truth in the saying that "the road to hell is paved with *evil* intentions," in my humble opinion:-

1 - "Charity ... hopeth all things." - 1 Corinthians 13:4,7

2 - "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." - 1 John 3:3

3 - "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" - Romans 8:24

Godly hope gives rise to that "single-minded" intention (aspiration) that lifts the mind continually to God in unceasing prayer.

(Message edited by theophilus on 25 May, 2005)
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:00 AM   #33
darieBarexish

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Off the top of my head, there would be at least a couple of saints (male) with the name Sabinus, who would do in the absence of a female saint Sabine. I'll look at my resources and let you know.
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Old 06-12-2006, 08:00 AM   #34
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First you say we should be uncompromising regarding our faith, then you say we should be unbiased. I cannot see how one can be uncompromising and not biased. I think that if you are uncompromising about the faith you will be unbiased too. Unbiased must mean uncompromising in presenting truth. The only way you would feel that to present the faith without compromise would be 'biased' would be if you considered it no more true than alternative worldviews.
(By the way, Vasilis, while you can find in Islam such things as you mention, you can also find instruction to be peace-loving and caring for neighbour. Such is not so easily found in Hitler's writing: for this and many other reasons I think one should be very careful about seeing any equivalence between National Socialism and Islam.)
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Old 06-16-2006, 08:00 AM   #35
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Alexis originally posted:-

>> " ... this is the meaning of the phrase: the road to hell is paved with good intentions." <<

Hi there Alexis,

First, as stated in my reply to Fr. Raphael, the intentions of the "natural" man are never good, according to Scripture. Secondly, intentions which are pure and born of the spirit of Christ are never duplicitous in nature, but simple or single-minded in their termination upon Christ's glory, and the soul's perfect union with Him. Third, the famous Scripture text for "good intentions" is, of course, Romans 7:14-23, wherein we are taught of the interior conflict that we experience, between the spirit and the flesh. That the flesh lusts against the spirit does not negate the fact that the spirit, or inward man of the heart, delights in the law of God, according to Rom. 7:22. Fourth, the most important aspect of any act is its "intention". The true nature of outwardly "virtuous" acts, even those performed under "right" circumstances, is determined by a man's true "intention(s)". That is to say, if a man's intention is duplicitous, after the manner of the Pharisees, then his action is evil, despite all "virtuous" appearances. Such was the public prayer of the Pharisees, which appeared "virtuous" in the eyes of men, but "vicious" in the eyes of God. Fifth, and last, "Give to him that asketh thee," ( Matt 5:42 ) and place the beggar in the hand of God.

humbly,
Theophilus
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Old 06-17-2006, 08:00 AM   #36
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> WOW! I like what you said! It is very profound! > Thank you, Vasilis
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Old 07-03-2006, 08:00 AM   #37
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Theophilus wrote:

Forgive me, but I must confess that the meaning of your post has somewhat puzzled me, especially the above remark, concerning Churchill's hopeful conversion to Orthodoxy in the "afterlife".
Perhaps I should qualify my original post by saying something about its underlying presupposition(s). According to the Scriptures, the thoughts and intents of the "natural" man (as distinct from the "spiritual" man in Christ) are only evil. Thus, according to this wisdom, Churchill was incapable of "good" intentions. Don't you know- sooner or later everyone is Orthodox- or else...
About Churchill I am hoping that it's the former.
Yes I'm being a bit silly here. But there is a point about good intentions outside of the Church & salvation.
Another Churchill story. He was once at a banquet. An Anglican clergyman got up & in his speech he praised Churchill for being "a pillar of the church." To which Churchill replied that he did not really know if he was a pillar "I consider myself more a flying buttress."
In Christ- Fr Raphael
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Old 08-06-2006, 08:00 AM   #38
penpizdes

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> Re: "I feel it's vital/impertative to be unbiased when dealing with religion" That has got to be next to impossible. Anyway, when one is dealing with a philosophy that is evil there can be no "fairness doctrine". The Nazis philosophy is evil. Most German people are NOT evil. But during a point in their history the German people, their society adopted the evil philosophy of Nazism. They were duped into doing this because it provided some answers to pressing problems that had been dealing with for years; poverty. Poverty caused by the greed of the powers who won WW I. Their greed and desire for vengeance against the German people drove them to strip that nation of everything they could take and destroy what they could not. The English and French did this despite the pleas and forebodings of then President Woodrow Wilson. All people are quite similar as far as having equal percentages of very good and very evil people. There are always those who need little or no persuasion to do evil. Likewise there are always good people. Good people who would never harm anyone no matter the amount of persuasion they are tempted. Both kinds can be found in any society; any major group of people. When any society adopts a philosophy that permits one ounce of evil you can be certain that there will be that element present who are quite willing to carry out the permitted evil to the last degree. And there too is always the opposite. No amount of permission can persuade them to do an evil act. Good people can be found even among a nation that has turned Nazi. But does that make the Nazi philosophy any better? Any less evil? So too their are wonderful people who count themselves as Muslims, and who would never harm anyone. But that doesn't make the philosophy of Islam any less evil. Merely because particular members of such a group are so to speak "hard-wired" to be gentle folk and have a myopic view of the teachings of the philosophy they consider themselves a member, does not make the actual teachings of that philosophy any less evil. It is, therefore imperative that each society be viglante as to what it is their leaders are about to press upon them as a "new way of thinking" ..or "new order" or "new world order" as both president Bush and his father so fondly loves to tout. No matter how good their intent. Just remember the old saying has much truth, "...the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Ask any German of post Nazi Germany! Ask the Byzantines who were kind to the Muslims and allowed them to build their mosques in their city of Constantinople. Ask any Egyptian/Coptic who has found his race to be reduced by slaughter to 10% of the population and their entire nation over-run with Arab/Turks who now call themselves "Egyptian" but speak Arabic and not the true ancient language of Egypt, Coptic. The Egyptian people were and still are 100% Christian and NOT MUSLIM. What lives in Egypt now, the Muslim who rule and predominate in Egypt today are not Egyptians; they are Arab/Turks invaders who murdered all but 10% of the true Egyptian people who spoke Coptic for thousands of years and still speak it.

>
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Old 08-13-2006, 08:00 AM   #39
Greapyjeory

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Dear Theophilus,
You wrote:

Thank you! So, then, a man "outside" the Church was gifted a faith greater than any "inside" the Church. Glory be to Christ the Almighty! I don't think that someone outside of the Church has either a greater or even equal faith to someone in the Church.
We are talking here rather about intention and God works with a good intention (or even bad actually)to draw people to Him. This is still not identical to the Church even though it may lead to it.
Beyond this it is difficult to speak. The intention or desire is not entirely free of sin & confusion. And it is very difficult for us to distinguish in others between conscious rejection of God and ignorance due to circumstances. In the Lives of the Saints there are examples of how God judges these two differently.
So we are taught and know that salvation in its full & proper sense only comes from within the Church. And yet God leads those outside the Church towards His salvation according to their means. This is a mystery of God's providence & difficult for us to understand. But it is more comprehensible when we understand that by salvation we mean ultimately the Church. Teleologically this is where the teaching of the Church about One Truth heads. The present world of multiple 'truths' is only the result of sin and will be healed one day in Christ.
Christ in the parable of the wheat & the tares explains why He leaves it so for now. Before the final healing from death the complete destruction of sin & confusion would also result in the destruction of good intentions. Wheat would be torn up with tares. So we know there is One Church but at the other pole God ultimately leads other sheep to His One fold. And this is why we say sooner or later, now or after death or at the Second Coming, all will be in the Church for all will be Church. Except for those who consciously reject Christ.
In Christ- Fr Raphael
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Old 08-14-2006, 08:00 AM   #40
WGfg4CCZ

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Oct 2005
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I hope this is not too simplistic, but as I understand the saying

the road to hell is paved with good intentions it is simply saying: having the intention to start praying regularly and being happy with that intention alone is not going to take you off the road to hell. Actually doing the praying might help, though...
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