[GOLAGLULT]

What Basil said.

Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Spurgeon, Finney etc. probably wouldn't recognize much in any branch of Protestantism today. As a friend noted, even our grandparents would be shocked. Look how far even the Anglicans have come since the time of C.S. Lewis.

I saw an article from an Arizona newspaper within the past 6 months where Protestant pastors were voicing extreme alarm over the loss of congregations and the high percentage of former members now saying they'd rather just go it alone, they're tired of hype and gimmicks and the obvious anxiety over clergy needing to hit a home run with every sermon.

George

[obegeLype]

Of course on the personal level we are no better than any other Christians or people.
But we can with profit look to how sin works in this world of ours. Not for the sake of scandal which is the parading of others' sins before the rest of the world but rather for the sake of a word of warning & caution directed at ourselves.
With this in mind there is nothing wrong with calling to mind the scandals which afflict Orthodoxy & the rest of Christianity and try to discern their cause and whether there is any difference between the two (ie Orthodox & other).
About scandal in the Church there is a general worldliness which leads to such things. It is also crucial to keep in mind that many scandals are caused by the unrighteous persecuting the righteous. The Lord allows such things to allow righteousness to shine forth within the Church. In any case the obvious solution to both of these types of scandals in the Church is to struggle against the spirit of this world which fights mightily in every one of our hearts. I say this because it seems that often those most offended by scandal in the Church are the last to think of this solution to it; to fast & pray harder & take our life in Christ more seriously.
Having said this I must say that I do believe there is an objective difference between scandal inside & outside of the Church. For all of the distress caused by scandal inside the Church since the time of Christ & His apostles the scandal found outside of the Church is actually worse or at least more widespread & crude.
The reason for this is because of a clear-cut contradiction in the life of other Christian groups. For example one cannot have a celibate clergy while at the same time getting rid of the ascetic teaching of the Gospel without running into grave danger. Those of us who have been around since the 1960s & 70s probably remember the many well known accounts of RC (& others also) monastics being led to "explore themselves". I recall one account of how this was done in the context of both male & female monastics together being urged to do this. If I recall correctly, when some of the monastics expressed hesitation about this they were urged (or actually almost forced from peer pressure) to go forward with the exercise. Then for some reason resulted the great surprise that monastics were leaving their monasteries in droves- at times as "Mr. & Mrs".
It also seems that the degree of scandal has grown worse over the decades. "Mr. & Mrs." now seem very innocent indeed compared to the terrible things going on now. Perhaps this is because the root cause of the problem is not being perceived and hence not dealt with.
Again none of this should be recounted in the spirit of spreading scandal. "There but for the grace of God go I." If we had been in similar circumstances many of us probably would have done the same. But still there is a great warning here for us. We must- and isn't this particularly appropriate for Great Lent?- keep to the ascetic, other-worldly teaching of the Church or we risk falling into something very dangerous for ourselves & the rest of the Church. The temptations are already great enough as I think anyone should be honest enough to admit to. What folly to pile on top of this a complete disregard for how our enemy seeks to make us fall and to heedlessly indulge in a worldly way of life!
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[kKFB1BxX]

People will make their own choices. But I can't help wondering how many of the 150,000 knew enough about Orthodoxy to make an informed decision. This information gap - or visibility to use Basil's neat expression - seems to me the main problem. Apart from that we should just be faithful to traditional Orthodoxy.

I am not saying, by the way, that people who know about Orthodoxy will automatically choose it. Randy is right to remind us of recent scandals, and I also know people who have felt a strong aversion to Orthodoxy after the Bosnian problem. But having said that, I think ignorance of Orthodoxy is the main problem that we are called to do something about.

Anthony

[Greapyjeory]

Dear Theophilus,
"Amen" to your words & may God continue to guide you.
In Christ- Fr Raphael

[GreesyBeeva]

Dear Edward,

If you say that the events in Greece and Palestine are the result of human sinfulness, it is very strange to refer to another way the scandals of the Roman Catholic Church, which are of course different in nature. I do not live in the US but in Europe, so first I had to think what scandals of the Catholic Church you mean. We are all in God's hands even if our faith diverse. Perhaps it is better to pray for each other (which does not mean of course, to hide scandals).

Eve

[hereiamguy]

Dear Eva,
I am getting myself into trouble again. I was responding to a dispondent post with something positive. My point first is that the Orthodox Church, in North America is growing in membership. As for the Roman Catholic Church (RCC), it has lost moral authority, in my opinion, because, in America there is a huge scandal that has erupted over cases of abuse (often sexual) of their clergy against minors. Now, this can happen anywhere, even in the Orthodox Church. What I find to be even more scandalous, is that it has been the practise of the RCC, rather than defrock and turn such men over to the legal authorities, to try and settle with the families, cover up the scandals, and transfer the offenders to other communities.
I don't like to be judgemental, but to me, it seems that the financial greediness of certain Orthodox bishops pales in comparison to RCC bishops who, for the sake of their Church's image, allow known sexual offenders to avoid justice, thus failing to protect their faithful and general public against such people.

[texbrease]

I always believe that everything is God's will.

I ask our Lord for forgiveness of all my sin everyday and that I would do more act of charity because that is what I am . I always pray for everyone no matter what the religion or race.. that they too find their way to the Church.

I just want to Praise our Lord Jesus for given me guidance in all I do ... I am very grateful that I had the most diverse friendship and brothers and that I dont discriminate base on races and ethnic. I dont think that our Lord is interested with race but , i think our Lord is more interested on fullfiling the Gsopel... " Philantrophia" to serve the rest and not the few. That is what I am ...
I also would like to Praise our Lord that in my
diverse experiences in my life...

I am looking forward to serve as humanitarian relief worker for our Lord Jesus Christ. I am very grateful that I dont belong in one race ... but all race of the world. I am very grateful for all the gift the our Lord have given me.

It is unfortunately that when I joined local orthodox church in my neighborhood, no one inspired with to serve the inner cities or even villages... but, everything is God's Will.

I lay my life for our Lord Jesus Christ in service to the World Poorest Community...

[freevideoandoicsI]

If the whole world became Roman Catholic and there was only one Orthodox Priest to receive me I would still become Orthodox! And I am! On Lazurus Saturday, April 23rd.

Praise be to God!

[datingcrew]

Dear George,

I was just curious as to what the phrase "pending Protestant collapse" means. A lot of Protestant churches are run autonomously of each other, regardless of denominational affiliation or not. What kind of collapse is being referred to here? Just curious.

[XarokLasa]

I have been quiet of late for many reasons, not least of which is the fact that Scripture teaches that the superessential life, which draws us up into the realm of the uncreated, begins in stillness and silence:-

ISA. 55:7-9

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

The wisdom of holy Scripture could not be plainer in this regard, that the unrighteous man, which I consider myself to be, must forsake his thoughts; and what is this, if not a clear call to inward stillness and silence. This not only requires us to cut off the incessant stream or flow of images that we are daily in every way being bombarded with, but also requires our concentrating awareness in the heart; that we might wait patiently upon the Lord in all His motions, or mystical comings and goings; in accord with the holy mystery of the Canticles.

As many here may be aware, I am a Catholic on the path to Orthodoxy. As one not even in the first stage of theosis, I must beg forgiveness for speaking as though I have have already attained to the second stage. I wish not to give the impression that I am or have achieved anything. To the contrary, I often question whether I have taken the first step of repentance, which is to forsake our own thoughts. May God have mercy on my unrighteous soul!!

Nevertheless, let us not forget the words of Jesus: "Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?" (Mt. 21:16) Many a time have I felt myself compelled, ( by the love of God, I pray, and not just sinful ego,) to speak a word or two, despite my humble place, on the basis of this scripture, that God often speaks through the mouth of babes. Such is the case now, but if some might object that I am not even a babe, being outside the Church, perhaps they will accept, at the very least, that the God who spoke through the mouth of a mule can equally speak through the mouth of a Catholic. And what is it to me, who am but a worm covered in the mire and filth of my own besetting sins, if I should been likened unto, or compared by many to Balaam's mule ? (Numbers 22:28) Let us attend unto the word of the Lord wherever we might encounter it, if even in the mouth of a beast (of burden)!!

First, I wish to thank the servant of God Randy for his Christ-like humility toward the Good Samaritans of the Catholic faith, whose hearts toward God and their neighbour, are not completely bad, though their dogmatics, like that of the Samaritans, may be subject to much harsh criticism. May God bless you always Randy on the path of salvation, and may the meekness and humility of our Lord Christ ever find your heart a place of fertile ground, in which they may grow lush and enduring roots!! And I would also like to thank Fr Raphael for his gracious and pastoral comments, which are well-taken.

As has been already observed, all is not well with Rome, despite outward appearances. Volumes of ink have been spilled over this, and I wish merely to hint at the problems, rather than participate in a deep and protracted exchange on the subject. I am the first to admit that numbers can be deceiving, not to mention 'fudged' to make a bad situation look better than it really is.

Having said that, though, I wish to reiterate a remark I posted elsewhere that, since the Second Vatican Council, Catholic Church attendance has dropped off by roughly 60%!! Many factors have contributed to this, but the bulk of the blame, in my humble estimation, must be heaped upon the backs of the Vatican II Council fathers and their destruction of the Catholic Liturgy. Here's a clip from a Catholic 'Traditionalist' that provides a succinct glimpse into the current crisis within the Catholic Church:-

Fruits of the New Mass

"By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit." (Matt. 7:15-17) Given the foregoing, it should be plain that the New Mass was conceived for an evil purpose and constructed by evil means. It only follows that such a tree would have disastrous effects on the Church. Let us look at its fruits as reported in Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since Vatican II.

The number of priests in the United States more than doubled from 1930 to 1965 to 58,000. Since then, however, the number has fallen to 45,000 and there will be only 31,000 priests left in 2020, with half of them being over 70. In 1965, only 1% of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, 3,000 or 15% of the parishes are priestless. The number of seminarians from 1965 to 2002 dropped over 90% from 49,000 to 4,700, while two-thirds of the seminaries have closed. There were 104,000 teaching nuns in 1965, while today there are a mere 8,200, a decline of 94% since the end of Vatican II. Religious orders are on the road to disappearance. Three and a half thousand were studying to be Jesuits in 1965. In 2000, the number was 389. The Christian Brothers have lost two-thirds of their members in that span of time, while the number of their seminarians has shrunk by 99%. In 2000, there were only seven. Almost half of all Catholic high schools have closed in the U.S. since 1965. Only one in four Catholics now attend Mass on Sundays. There were 338 annulments in 1968 and 50,000 in 2002. Only 10% of lay religious teachers now accept Church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent say that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent hold that one can be a good Catholic without going to Mass on Sundays. Finally, 70% of Catholics between 18 and 44 believe that the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.

Who could possibly claim that there is not a terrible crisis of Faith in the Catholic Church!? It is no wonder that Cardinal Ratzinger affirmed: “I am convinced that the ecclesial crisis in which we find ourselves today depends in great part on the collapse of the liturgy.” It is clear how the New Mass could create such a disaster. Liturgy dictates belief. A Protestantized liturgy yields heretical belief, loss of the Faith, and devaluation of the priesthood. Satan has been able to accomplish more effective damage to the entire body of the Church in the past 35 years through the destruction of the Mass than ever before.

=>>(End of Clip)<<=

Many, if not most of the Monachos membership may be unaware of the "Traditionalist" movement within the Catholic Church, so I'll say a few words.

There are four types of 'Traditionalist' in Catholicism: first are those who believe that Vatican II, its New Mass, and her popes are all legitimate. These have succeeded in obtaining from JP II special permission to continue the pre-conciliar Tridentine Latin Mass, with the 'old-school' piety, in their homes and parishs, but such indults are exceedingly rare, and becoming harder to find all the time. The second class of Catholic 'Traditionalist' are those who recognize JP II as a legitimate pope, but one that has succumbed to many "informal" errors; and yet, has been preserved from declaring any of these "ex cathedra", from the throne of Peter. This second class rejects the Second Vatican Council as the work of satan; whereas the third class of 'Traditionalist' consists of those who believe the last four popes were all 'anti-popes', and that the papal throne has been vacant since the repose of Pius XII. The fourth class of 'Traditionalist' consists of those who have elected their own popes, such as Pius XIII, to name one example.

Not knowing much about the Old-Catholics, I cannot offer any relaible comment on where they might fit into this general scheme. I'm inclined to think, though, they are 'sedevacantists' who believe the papal throne has been vacant since the First Vatican Council, but I only speculate; as I've never really done any research on them, not even as far as the Catholic Encyclopedia goes. Perhaps one of the Old-Catholics on board here can offer a word or two on this.

Where I personally fit into this scheme is of little present importance. Suffice it to say, though, that, in my humble opinion, pre-conciliar Tridentine Catholicism survives only among a small remnant of Catholics. Thus, if Catholicism lives, it lives in the hearts, homes and parishes of the "chosen" few. And it is my great fear that these 150,000 new converts are converting to the new religion of Vatican II, and not the glorious way of the holy fathers, martyrs, and saints. (Please do not misconstrue this last statement as a claim, necessarily, that pre-Vatican II Tridentine Catholicism is of Patristic origin; though I believe a strong case may be made for it having preserved many Patristic elements.) I say this with fear and trembling, knowing that some day, I will have to explain myself before the Great White Throne.

As a closing remark, I cannot help but notice that many Orthodox believers have reacted in a similar manner to the encroachments of 'modernism' into their own Church. That is to say, I see a close parallel between the "Old-Calendarists" in the Orthodox Church and those Catholic 'Traditionalists' who have rejected all Vatican II reforms.

Please forgive the crudeness and offensiveness of my words. May the Blessed Theotokos and all the saints intercede on my behalf, that I and my family should find grace and favour in the eyes of God Almighty!! Lord have mercy.

In the Spirit of Christ,
Theophilus

(Message edited by theophilus on 29 March, 2005)

[Nptxsews]

Re: "...150,000 People to Join Catholic Church Holy Saturday..." It is strange that an organization like the Roman Catholic church that molests/sexually assaults its children, ruins lives, is being sued literally out of existence due to its complicity in its sexual predatory activities of its child membership, and is based on false theological guilt would gain any membership in the USA. But then again, this is a nation that elected one the most fraudulent administration in this nation’s history...so what would you expect (Bush is even developing his own ministry of propaganda)! Why not join a fraudulent church ? Apparently what the circus people, Barnum/Bailey said is true; there is a sucker born every minute. People love to be fooled...
By the way...the title of the article being referred to is TOTALLY INCORRECT "More Than 150,000 People to Join Catholic Church" WHEN REFERING TO THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH...THAT IS AN ILLEGIMENT ORGANIZATION AND SHOULD NOT EVER BE AFFORDED SUCH AN AWSOM TITLE AS "THE CATHOLIC CHURCH"! I'm a Catholic and in no way do I support the organization cult called the "Roman Catholics" I don't care how big that organization happens to be.

[hereiamguy]

I don't see what the concern is. The reality is is that the Orthodox Church is growing. The fact that Protestants are becoming Latins does not negate the fact and reality that many Protestants and Latins are becoming Orthodox. 80% of the Clergy in the Antiochian Archdiocese of America are converts. I have heard that 50% (and maybe more) is the case for the OCA and the Russian Church Abroad. Even in the Greek Archdiocese, particullary among the communities of Elder Ephraim, there are many converts. I do not have any official figures, but I one time read that the Orthodox Church is the 3rd fastest growing Church in America and the fastest growing liturgical (as opposed to pulpit based) Church there.
As for the scandals in Greece and Palestine, that is the result of human sinfulness. If one studies Church history, even from the earliest times, one can find corruption, scandals, and unchristian behaviour on the part of the clergy and faithful of the Church.
We know very well that the Roman Catholic Church has anything but a clean slate in its history. The recent scandal it finds itself in is far worse that any financial or property scandal we see in Greece or Palestine. The Roman Catholic Church now finds itself bereft of any moral authority, even among its own flock, based on the actions of their clergy and moreover based on the fact that their hierarchs knew what was occuring and did nothing.

[Arkadiyas]

Dear Randy:

I'm not sure that you can make a valid judgement about the mission or survival of the Orthodox Chruch in the USA based on the stastistics and anecdotes quoted in your article. And, at least to me, "going mainstream" has a worldliness about it that is opposed to Orthodox spirtiuality.