[huerta]

nope! The hypocrisy on this issue is amazing. If an Israeli looks cross-eyed at a Palistinian it’s front page news but if 12 Christians get massacared and a few churches burned down in Egypt - not a ripple. Also, the 'religion of peace' insists you worship Allah and Koran and not doing so will result in your throat slashed!
amazing, they can't even get along with themselves ( muslims ) and they want to be known as the 'religion of peace'. What’s happening to Christians in the middle east makes what Quaddafyi is doing in Libya look like child’s play.

Are Christians safe anywhere in the Middle East?

Are Christians safe anywhere in Muslim majority countries?

[Elissetecausa]

Obviously this violence is bad but I have decent hope for the future. Copts are 10% of the society and pretty well integrated. I don't imagine too much mainstream political action being taken against them--mostly relegated to mob violence. A lot is going to depend on how the police and military can react to stop this type of thing. Right now they're not as effective as they could be. It seems they are taking it more seriously now.

As for Christians being safe in Muslim-majority countries is really depends. Just like someone living in Philly there are varying degrees of safe depending on your area. Christians in Egypt as a population are pretty safe but obviously incidents like this create fear and unease. When religious and ethnic tensions are inflamed bad things happen. And right now some 'salafi' groups are taking advantage of the transition to do that. I can only hope it backfires and helps Egypt see what it really doesn't want the future to look like.

nope! Because the 'religion of peace' insists you worship Allah and Koran and not doing so will result in your throat slashed!
amazing, they can't even get along with themselves ( muslims ) and they want to be known as the 'religion of peace'.

Tell me more about "them". I should also mention "religion of peace" is a neologism maybe not coined by Bush but put into popular circulation by him. It's mostly people who are afraid of insulting someone who say "religion of peace" which is obviously a stupid phrase to describe any population of more than a billion. But at least they're trying to be kind in their generalizations instead of fear mongering bigotry. You should cut this vast generalizations about billions of people ****. Yes, there are far too many bat**** crazy Muslims. We get it. Not sure how that translates into omg they want to slash your throats. Most of us just want you to shut up and stop telling us what we think.

[botagozzz]

Besides, Christians are never violent. Ever. Never in history. Only Muslims.

In this case religion is a convenient excuse for mayhem.

[huerta]

Just like someone living in Philly there are varying degrees of safe depending on your area.

Apples and Oranges.



[QUOTE Tell me more about "them". I should also mention "religion of peace" is a neologism maybe not coined by Bush but put into popular circulation by him. It's mostly people who are afraid of insulting someone who say "religion of peace" which is obviously a stupid phrase to describe any population of more than a billion. But at least they're trying to be kind in their generalizations instead of fear mongering bigotry. You should cut this vast generalizations about billions of people ****. Yes, there are far too many bat**** crazy Muslims. We get it. Not sure how that translates into omg they want to slash your throats. Most of us just want you to shut up and stop telling us what we think.[/QUOTE]

Look at whats going on in the middle east to get a good picture of "them".
Also Christ preached "love your enemies" mohamed preached "kill infedels that do not worhship allah".
And since when does Christianity have a set of laws like the Shirah laws that many islamic countries follow?
Generalizations my ass. People preach about islam being peacefull but they are killing each other as well. No two tribes can get along!

[huerta]

Besides, Christians are never violent. Ever. Never in history. Only Muslims.

In this case religion is a convenient excuse for mayhem.

lately? yeah its muslims. Read up more about the crusades to find out the real truth about it.

[viagsjicguara]

when a situation is reversed and the "opposite" are targeted, the non news worthy side, it never gets coverage no matter who "they" are. you only get coverage when the PC side is being discriminated against.

[zawhmqswly]

During most of the Islamic Period, Christian Egyptians formed the backbone of the country's administration and many, along with people of other faiths such as Jews, rose to ministerial positions. Like all non-Moslems they paid a special poll tax. At certain periods, and despite clear Islamic teachings on tolerance, they endured certain restrictions, often because of complaints over their undue influence. Their conversion to Islam was a long process: according to the geographer Al-Muqaddasi, Copts were still in the majority in the 10th century, almost four centuries after the Moslem annexation of Egypt. The European Crusades, instigated by Pope Urban II in 1095, must have had a particularly negative impact: the local Christian population probably sided most often with their Moslem compatriots, while some Moslems sided with the Frankish invaders. The Crusades may be one main reason why more Egyptian Christians converted to Islam. Nowadays about 10 % of Egyptians are Christians following different churches, mainly the Coptic Orthodox Church. Despite sporadic times of discord, as in the reign of the eccentric but brilliant Fatimid ruler al-Hakim, the story of the Copts in Egypt reflects a generally tolerant country by comparison with the fate of religious minorities in medieval and later Europe.

Coptic Egypt: background

[Elissetecausa]

Apples and Oranges.

I only meant to say that different Philly neighborhoods expose you to varying degrees of violence. Different countries and areas within countries in the Muslim world expose Christians to vastly different degrees of violence. Better to be a Turkish Christian than a Coptic Christian than an Afghani Christian.

Look at whats going on in the middle east to get a good picture of "them".
Also Christ preached "love your enemies" mohamed preached "kill infedels that do not worhship allah".
And since when does Christianity have a set of laws like the Shirah laws that many islamic countries follow?
Generalizations my ass. People preach about islam being peacefull but they are killing each other as well. No two tribes can get along! What Muhammad or Christ preached is pretty irrelevant. What's relevant is the interpretations of followers and how they act upon it. When it suited Christians Christ brought the sword. When it suits Muslims Muhammad is God's warrior. And when it doesn't they're both bringers of peace and justice. I may have my ideas about the eternal message of Islam but I'm not stupid enough to disregard the fact that interpretations have shifted innumerable times over the centuries. And it strikes me very odd that as a non-Muslim you would think you know the eternal message of a prophet you don't believe is a prophet. I would never ask you to think Islam is peaceful because I would never ask you to essentialize Islam. Islam as a social phenomenon is what's important. You seem to have the cabal-istic view that there is a true meaning and once I discover it I'll slit your throat. Good news for you, bro, I get to follow the schools of thought I want and assign meaning to my religious experience so your throat's safe from me.

I should also mention I wouldn't want to live most places in a Muslim country. Is this because they're Muslim and I'm afraid? No. It's because they're a third world countries and third world countries have all types of violence, poverty, quality of life issues we just don't have here.

Regarding shari`ah it's just a general term for religious law. You need fiqh to give that concept content. It's not like Canon Law that's well laid out. There are competing conceptions. Falsafa and kalam are competing non-legal conceptions. Most people don't know usul al-fiqh and popular religion is a mix of different practices derived from culture and happenstance. To think there's some slavish following of a billion people to evil woman stoning, gay killing sharia is as stupid as assuming that many Catholics care about Canon Law or that New Gingrich applies Rerum Novarum to his public policy views.

[botagozzz]

lately? yeah its muslims. Read up more about the crusades to find out the real truth about it.

You mean where Christians slaughtered their way through the Levant? Or the Fourth Crusade where they sacked Constantinople, a Christian city, because they got bored? Would you like some reading material on the Crusades? I have a fantastic history library.

It's muslim fanatics, not all muslims. Just like during the crusades it was christian fanatics, not all Christians. And those who take advantage, of course.

And since when does Christianity have a set of laws like the Shirah laws that many islamic countries follow? Um, how about Christian religious laws that existed for about 1500 years in Europe?

[huerta]

Contantonople is islamic.
Isalm seems to be a phanatical cult.
Again... tell me about how the religon is peacefull?

You mean where Christians slaughtered their way through the Levant? Or the Fourth Crusade where they sacked Constantinople, a Christian city, because they got bored? Would you like some reading material on the Crusades? I have a fantastic history library.

It's muslim fanatics, not all muslims. Just like during the crusades it was christian fanatics, not all Christians. And those who take advantage, of course.

Um, how about Christian religious laws that existed for about 1500 years in Europe?

Really? you do not think Islam was a threat to christian nations? The crusades just happened?
Christians today aren't stoning women to death and hanging homosexuals.
Have you read the Koran?

[huerta]

I think what was preached is relavant. I have read the Koran.
I have yet to see what peace and justice islam has brought to anything.
I'll stick with Christs message.

Also - England and other parts of Europe are not third world yet they have many violent muslims living there preaching and
threatening others. See England for example.

I only meant to say that different Philly neighborhoods expose you to varying degrees of violence. Different countries and areas within countries in the Muslim world expose Christians to vastly different degrees of violence. Better to be a Turkish Christian than a Coptic Christian than an Afghani Christian.



What Muhammad or Christ preached is pretty irrelevant. What's relevant is the interpretations of followers and how they act upon it. When it suited Christians Christ brought the sword. When it suits Muslims Muhammad is God's warrior. And when it doesn't they're both bringers of peace and justice. I may have my ideas about the eternal message of Islam but I'm not stupid enough to disregard the fact that interpretations have shifted innumerable times over the centuries. And it strikes me very odd that as a non-Muslim you would think you know the eternal message of a prophet you don't believe is a prophet. I would never ask you to think Islam is peaceful because I would never ask you to essentialize Islam. Islam as a social phenomenon is what's important. You seem to have the cabal-istic view that there is a true meaning and once I discover it I'll slit your throat. Good news for you, bro, I get to follow the schools of thought I want and assign meaning to my religious experience so your throat's safe from me.

I should also mention I wouldn't want to live most places in a Muslim country. Is this because they're Muslim and I'm afraid? No. It's because they're a third world countries and third world countries have all types of violence, poverty, quality of life issues we just don't have here.

Regarding shari`ah it's just a general term for religious law. You need fiqh to give that concept content. It's not like Canon Law that's well laid out. There are competing conceptions. Falsafa and kalam are competing non-legal conceptions. Most people don't know usul al-fiqh and popular religion is a mix of different practices derived from culture and happenstance. To think there's some slavish following of a billion people to evil woman stoning, gay killing sharia is as stupid as assuming that many Catholics care about Canon Law or that New Gingrich applies Rerum Novarum to his public policy views.

[botagozzz]

Contantonople is islamic. HISTORY FAIL

Constantinople is Turkish, many of which are Muslims. However, during the Fourth Crusade, Constantinople was (and still is) the seat of Orthodox Christianity and the capital of the Roman Empire (yeah, they lasted that long). Mehmed II did not conquer Constantinople until 1453, the fourth crusade and the sack of Constantinople was in 1204.

The Latin soldiery subjected the greatest city in Europe to an indescribable sack. For three days they murdered, raped, looted and destroyed on a scale which even the ancient Vandals and Goths would have found unbelievable. Constantinople had become a veritable museum of ancient and Byzantine art, an emporium of such incredible wealth that the Latins were astounded at the riches they found. Though the Venetians had an appreciation for the art which they discovered (they were themselves semi-Byzantines) and saved much of it, the French and others destroyed indiscriminately, halting to refresh themselves with wine, violation of nuns, and murder of Orthodox clerics. The Crusaders vented their hatred for the Greeks most spectacularly in the desecration of the greatest Church in Christendom. They smashed the silver iconostasis, the icons and the holy books of Hagia Sophia, and seated upon the patriarchal throne a whore who sang coarse songs as they drank wine from the Church's holy vessels. The estrangement of East and West, which had proceeded over the centuries, culminated in the horrible massacre that accompanied the conquest of Constantinople. The Greeks were convinced that even the Turks, had they taken the city, would not have been as cruel as the Latin Christians. The defeat of Byzantium, already in a state of decline, accelerated political degeneration so that the Byzantines eventually became an easy prey to the Turks. The Crusading movement thus resulted, ultimately, in the victory of Islam, a result which was of course the exact opposite of its original intention.[26][27] According to Choniates, a prostitute was even set up on the Patriarchal throne.[28]

[Elissetecausa]

I think what was preached is relavant. I have read the Koran.
I have yet to see what peace and justice islam has brought to anything.
I'll stick with Christs message.

Also - England and other parts of Europe are not third world yet they have many violent muslims living there preaching and
threatening others. See England for example.

That's cool that you've read the Qur'an. I don't get your point? Islam doesn't bring peace and justice. It's an idea, a loosely regulated system of belief, an identity. It takes individuals to act on what they perceive the message to be--and some help to bring peace and justice and others don't. It's a bizarre worldview to me to think Jesus message good--Christians good. Muhammad message bad--Muslims bad. I could think Jesus had a bad message and you could be a cool guy. I could think Jesus had a great message and you could be a bad guy. But I'm Muslim so I won't try to construct a "true" message from the Bible and then pretend that's what Christians are supposed to believe. I have the decency to let Christians interpret their own religious texts and state what they believe before presuming I know what they should believe.

Sure, England isn't third world but many of the Muslim immigrates came recently from the third world or live in communities largely of recent immigrants. I mean, but there's not a huge problem in England. Obviously there's worrisome people who hopefully will never pull off another 7/7. No one is saying violent Muslims aren't a problem. I'm not even saying violent Muslims aren't a greater problem in the West per capita than violent Christians. I'm just saying your brush is painting pretty broadly and you got paint on my family, friend and myself. And I think that's kind of mean :<

[Yswxomvy]

Contantonople is islamic.
Isalm seems to be a phanatical cult.
Again... tell me about how the religon is peacefull?

Look ma, a retard.

[Corporal White]

Contantonople is islamic.
Isalm seems to be a phanatical cult.
Again... tell me about how the religon is peacefull?





Really? you do not think Islam was a threat to christian nations? The crusades just happened?
Christians today aren't stoning women to death and hanging homosexuals.
Have you read the Koran?

All religions are cults, in some form. Since Christianity is the dominate religion in our country, people don't tend to think of it as a cult. But let's really be honest. Christians have some wild ideals about the world,too.

Christians might not be stoning women, but they have a strong track record of denying women equal rights. Especially in America.
Have you read the old testament? Have you ever read any of the passages where God tells the Jews to rape and pillage the cities? Killing men, women and children alike?

The West was fortunate enough to go through The Age of Enlightenment, which the Church fought against. Let's not act like the West is morally superior because of Christianity, because it's truly not.

[zawhmqswly]

My intent with the original post was to show what I see as a break down in Egyptian society and not to start a religious war .
gren if you were personally offended buy anything I posted I am sorry.

[huerta]

you are going to have to cite some scripture for me.

All religions are cults, in some form. Since Christianity is the dominate religion in our country, people don't tend to think of it as a cult. But let's really be honest. Christians have some wild ideals about the world,too.

Christians might not be stoning women, but they have a strong track record of denying women equal rights. Especially in America.
Have you read the old testament? Have you ever read any of the passages where God tells the Jews to rape and pillage the cities? Killing men, women and children alike?

The West was fortunate enough to go through The Age of Enlightenment, which the Church fought against. Let's not act like the West is morally superior because of Christianity, because it's truly not.

[huerta]

Last time I checked, turkey was islamic.

HISTORY FAIL

Constantinople is Turkish, many of which are Muslims. However, during the Fourth Crusade, Constantinople was (and still is) the seat of Orthodox Christianity and the capital of the Roman Empire (yeah, they lasted that long). Mehmed II did not conquer Constantinople until 1453, the fourth crusade and the sack of Constantinople was in 1204.

[huerta]

well if you think it's morally superior because of secularism, I got a bridge to sell you.

All religions are cults, in some form. Since Christianity is the dominate religion in our country, people don't tend to think of it as a cult. But let's really be honest. Christians have some wild ideals about the world,too.

Christians might not be stoning women, but they have a strong track record of denying women equal rights. Especially in America.
Have you read the old testament? Have you ever read any of the passages where God tells the Jews to rape and pillage the cities? Killing men, women and children alike?

The West was fortunate enough to go through The Age of Enlightenment, which the Church fought against. Let's not act like the West is morally superior because of Christianity, because it's truly not.

[Yswxomvy]

Last time I checked, turkey was islamic.

Turkey is a secular state with no official state religion, but a vast majority of its inhabitants practice Islam....try again.