[Gozmand]

America's secret plan to arm Libya's rebels - Middle East, World - The Independent

Somehow, this doesn't come out as a surprise.

Assuming that it has nothing to do with humanitarian aid, or to prevent a civil war.. or to fight for the "freedom" of the Libyans.. (heard that line before.. in 2003).
Strategically speaking, what are the advantages for the US to fight Gheddafi?
Oil? strategic military occupations/bases?

[gusecrync]

America's secret plan to arm Libya's rebels - Middle East, World - The Independent

Somehow, this doesn't come out as a surprise.

Assuming that it has nothing to do with humanitarian aid, or to prevent a civil war.. or to fight for the "freedom" of the Libyans.. (heard that line before.. in 2003).
Strategically speaking, what are the advantages for the US to fight Gheddafi?
Oil? strategic military occupations/bases?

I really don't think the American public would stand for that one. Been there-done that before. I think what is going to happen "eventually" is that NATO will get involved.

Since you live in Italy you're closer to this hot bed--why don't you guys do something about it for a change?

[Greapyjeory]

I guess it's not that secret if it's being reported on.

That being said, yeah, I think we should stay out of this.

[gusecrync]

I guess it's not that secret if it's being reported on.

That being said, yeah, I think we should stay out of this.

What I find real interesting here--is the difference in attitude Kadafy showed to Reagan and Bush--as compared to BO.

Reagan put a couple of missles in Kadafy's palace back in the 80's and we really didn't hear much from him--until Kadafy willingly gave up his WMD after what he saw Bush do to Iraq over WMD.

I think Kadafy is a coward and would cut and run out of Libya--if he believed BO would do the same. So far BO hasn't really taken a stance on this with France and another screaming to get NATO involved and BO is sitting in the Oval office twiddling his thumbs over this matter.

[Gozmand]

Since you live in Italy you're closer to this hot bed--why don't you guys do something about it for a change?

Right, well we sure have done more than the US.
We are providing dorms and tents for the thousands of northern Africans escaping that region and entering Italian soil. We have sent a ship that has 2 missions on hand, to reach Libya and Tunisia. The ships are filled with all the necessary goods for 4000 people, including water, rice, and other primary food goods.
We sent medical supplies, medical emergency stands and 40 medical kits for emergency procedures. What has your country done, other than threaten a military mission, spy the regions fly zone with your awacs, and secretly ask other middle eastern countries to smuggle weapons into Libya to start a civil war (because that's what will ultimately happen if you smuggle weapons to take sides).

We also told the US to calm the fuck down.. but ofcourse that call was ignored.

As you may know, Italy is abiding to UN rules, and as such we are abiding to Nato interventions when commanded to, we have already accepted to follow Nato's objectives.

[Gozmand]

So far BO hasn't really taken a stance on this with France and another screaming to get NATO involved and BO is sitting in the Oval office twiddling his thumbs over this matter.

Well, you have taken a stance.. you are considering military action. That's a pretty major stance to me..

[Gozmand]

I guess it's not that secret if it's being reported on.

The term secret is used to give the representation that the US was secretly trying to plan weapons smuggling into Libya, without others knowing..

[Greapyjeory]

What I find real interesting here--is the difference in attitude Kadafy showed to Reagan and Bush--as compared to BO.

Reagan put a couple of missles in Kadafy's palace back in the 80's and we really didn't hear much from him--until Kadafy willingly gave up his WMD after what he saw Bush do to Iraq over WMD.

I think Kadafy is a coward and would cut and run out of Libya--if he believed BO would do the same. So far BO hasn't really taken a stance on this with France and another screaming to get NATO involved and BO is sitting in the Oval office twiddling his thumbs over this matter.

Gadhafi might be a coward, but I prefer us to stay out of foreign conflicts whenever possible. We've got our hands full with Iraq and Afghanistan, and with the debts we're already facing in a bad economy, another war is the last thing we need.

[Greapyjeory]

The term secret is used to give the representation that the US was secretly trying to plan weapons smuggling into Libya, without others knowing..

Yeah, I know. I was just being facetious.

[KkJvrG4d]

Right, well we sure have done more than the US.
We are providing dorms and tents for the thousands of northern Africans escaping that region and entering Italian soil. We have sent a ship that has 2 missions on hand, to reach Libya and Tunisia. The ships are filled with all the necessary goods for 4000 people, including water, rice, and other primary food goods.
We sent medical supplies, medical emergency stands and 40 medical kits for emergency procedures. What has your country done, other than threaten a military mission, spy the regions fly zone with your awacs, and secretly ask other middle eastern countries to smuggle weapons into Libya to start a civil war (because that's what will ultimately happen if you smuggle weapons to take sides).

We also told the US to calm the fuck down.. but ofcourse that call was ignored.

As you may know, Italy is abiding to UN rules, and as such we are abiding to Nato interventions when commanded to, we have already accepted to follow Nato's objectives.

Right, the massive legions of Italian troops used in Afganistan right

[Gozmand]

Right, the massive legions of Italian troops used in Afganistan right

We didn't send a single soldier to Libya or Tunisia..
In Afghanistan, we shouldn't even be there.. that war has nothing to do with us.. we are there for all the wrong reasons.. we have lost too many soldiers in the last 6 months.. it's ridiculous..

[no02rSx2]

Arming a force we don't understand has always proven to be so amazingly effective in the past.
Look how grateful the islamic-fanatics are for the help we gave the followers of islam in the former Yugoslavia.
Afghanistan worked out so f'n well for us as well...

[KuRoregioNka]

Why do we need to aid them on the sly?

[ditpiler]

We need to stay the fuck out of this and let them kill each other...

[BigBobdd]

Right, well we sure have done more than the US.
We are providing dorms and tents for the thousands of northern Africans escaping that region and entering Italian soil. We have sent a ship that has 2 missions on hand, to reach Libya and Tunisia. The ships are filled with all the necessary goods for 4000 people, including water, rice, and other primary food goods.
We sent medical supplies, medical emergency stands and 40 medical kits for emergency procedures. What has your country done, other than threaten a military mission, spy the regions fly zone with your awacs, and secretly ask other middle eastern countries to smuggle weapons into Libya to start a civil war (because that's what will ultimately happen if you smuggle weapons to take sides).

We also told the US to calm the fuck down.. but ofcourse that call was ignored.

As you may know, Italy is abiding to UN rules, and as such we are abiding to Nato interventions when commanded to, we have already accepted to follow Nato's objectives.

Thats great Italy. You're so holy, keeping those illegal immigrants who are practically invading your soil in droves, in camps. Aren't yall such great people? It couldn't possibly be in your own self interest to pick them up before they formed armed, hungry mobs in your territory yeah? Perish the thought
You've got to round them up early otherwise they get everywhere. Real spiffy dude. Last I checked the world was pissed at america for sticking our noses in things that were none of our business. So now, when we don't stick our beaks in, you're still pissed off at us? We don't like how the UN does things (or rather doesn't do them), big deal. We aren't obligated to Libya in any fashion.

Plus if you hadn't noticed, rebel factions taking over entire cities and attacking any military or government entity that approaches after demanding the abdication of their dictator counts as civil war. The populace is at war with itself and it's government. If we did arm the rebels (which i'm pretty certain is a bad idea. Look at the taliban. Who gave them guns? yeah thats right, we did) it would be evening the odds. Same with the no fly zone, that simply makes it a ground war instead of a one sided air conflict. All those things give the rebels a chance to FREE THEMSELVES, rather than requiring that the world FREE THEM. We (nato or the US) don't always need to step in guns blazing, nor should we. Look at somalia in the 90's. Getting involved in a civil war is a bad idea, right up there with getting in a land war in asia, or trying to invade russia in the winter.

[Gozmand]

Thats great Italy. You're so holy, keeping those illegal immigrants who are practically invading your soil in droves, in camps. Aren't yall such great people?

I don't like your futile sarcasm, Keeping those "illegal" immigrants in dorms is the smartest thing to do at the moment. You see, we have this thing called order in Italy. Where we try to maintain a smooth influx of immigrants, making sure they have no history of wrong-doing in their country of origin. We check their documents, their certificates, before letting them go around Italy looking for a job. While we do all these check ups, we place them in dorms, where they get free food, free beds and volunteers who help them settle.
Maybe you should do the same in the US, and control your influx of immigrants from south American countries, instead of playing the cool sarcastic kid with us.

It couldn't possibly be in your own self interest to pick them up before they formed armed, hungry mobs in your territory yeah? Perish the thought

What you wrote doesn't even make sense..

You've got to round them up early otherwise they get everywhere. Real spiffy dude.

Your country does exactly the same you noob, the only difference is you also have a funded authority division that hunts them down and kicks them out of your country.. real swell.

Last I checked the world was pissed at america for sticking our noses in things that were none of our business. So now, when we don't stick our beaks in, you're still pissed off at us?

LOL... are you serious? It's actually the complete opposite. Libya has nothing to do with the US.. and yes, you are sticking your noses in again!
The whole concept of this thread is to discuss America's secret plans to arm the rebels .. through Saudi Arabia.. and whats funnier is the fact that you are asking Saudi Arabia to arm them with their own money, because your country is broke.

Everyone gets pissed off at your country, because you take advantage of dire situations for your future benefit. It's your way of doing politics, War-make bases-move on to the next country-War-make bases - move on to the next country, or alternatively, Give financial favours in exchange of bases and move on to the next country.

We don't like how the UN does things (or rather doesn't do them), big deal. We aren't obligated to Libya in any fashion.

You don't like how the UN does things? you Veto everything that you don't like, which is always about your own benefit, and all other countries have to sit back and agree to disagree with you. The UN is a pro-American institution. You have embedded corruption into a good number of UN officials. (wikileaks)

Plus if you hadn't noticed, rebel factions taking over entire cities and attacking any military or government entity that approaches after demanding the abdication of their dictator counts as civil war.

Yes, and rebel factions don't take over cities with knives.. they get armed by richer funders who pay to topple the government.

Same with the no fly zone, that simply makes it a ground war instead of a one sided air conflict.

The proposal of the No fly zone is a simple military tactic to cause international intervention. Ie. You add a no fly zone - gheddafis soldiers fly with their jets - the US then has the legal authority to intervene because of that breach.

We (nato or the US) don't always need to step in guns blazing, nor should we.

Very true, but you do 90% of the time..

[Greapyjeory]

I don't like your futile sarcasm, Keeping those "illegal" immigrants in dorms is the smartest thing to do at the moment. You see, we have this thing called order in Italy. Where we try to maintain a smooth influx of immigrants, making sure they have no history of wrong-doing in their country of origin. We check their documents, their certificates, before letting them go around Italy looking for a job. While we do all these check ups, we place them in dorms, where they get free food, free beds and volunteers who help them settle.
Maybe you should do the same in the US, and control your influx of immigrants from south American countries, instead of playing the cool sarcastic kid with us.

I really wish this was more of an option for us, but it's not. Italy has the advantage of having a sea between you and the source of the illegal immigration. We share a rather large land border with our source.

We don't have that many affordable options.

Everyone gets pissed off at your country, because you take advantage of dire situations for your future benefit. It's your way of doing politics, War-make bases-move on to the next country-War-make bases - move on to the next country, or alternatively, Give financial favours in exchange of bases and move on to the next country.

Well, we're not the pioneers of that. We just happen to be the best at doing that at the moment. I think our days of this are numbered though. It's getting far too expensive to keep this tactic up. China will likely pick up the slack in the future.

You don't like how the UN does things? you Veto everything that you don't like, which is always about your own benefit, and all other countries have to sit back and agree to disagree with you. The UN is a pro-American institution. You have embedded corruption into a good number of UN officials. (wikileaks).

Sort of... Although, China and Russia veto plenty of things as well. The Security Council essentially makes the U.N. mostly impotent with regard to real change oftentimes.

[goatteatromiag]

I really wish this was more of an option for us, but it's not. Italy has the advantage of having a sea between you and the source of the illegal immigration. We share a rather large land border with our source.

Agreed

Well, we're not the pioneers of that. We just happen to be the best at doing that at the moment. I think our days of this are numbered though. It's getting far too expensive to keep this tactic up. China will likely pick up the slack in the future.

Again I concur. The funny thing is now people get mad we don't pursue this type of strategy and intervene. And your right about China (Tough Vote: Top Countries: Will China overtake the US?), its going to be up to them to start policing all this stuff, and they are not exactly the ones you want to be doing that sort of thing...

Sort of... Although, China and Russia veto plenty of things as well. The Security Council essentially makes the U.N. mostly impotent with regard to real change oftentimes.

And this is the main reason the UN has not passed anything to help Libya as of yet!

[Gozmand]

Again I concur. The funny thing is now people get mad we don't pursue this type of strategy and intervene.

You must be blind sir.. NO one wants the US to intervene.. Europe doesn't, Italy doesn't, China doesn't, Russia doesn't, the Arab league(which should have the ultimate decision point) doesn't, and several other countries don't want a US led military action.

France asked the US not to act militarily, and demanded to be the only country to strike an attack in Libya. As did the United Kingdom.

Everyone is pressuring to avoid US intervention... no one here is getting "mad" about you not pursuing this type of strategy and intervene.. So where are you getting this impression? Most Americans live with the concept that the US = Awesome, and that because of their economic/financial power, they can afford to stick their noses everywhere. Most of you believe the whole world supports America, but never before has there ever been a radical increase in anti-Americanism.

And your right about China (Tough Vote: Top Countries: Will China overtake the US?), its going to be up to them to start policing all this stuff, and they are not exactly the ones you want to be doing that sort of thing...

The article you listed, only describes the overtake of China in terms of largest economy and Population number, but nothing new or predicted about military technology, or military politics. How can you say that China will adopt the exact same expansion tactic the US has been doing ever since the end of WWII?

And this is the main reason the UN has not passed anything to help Libya as of yet!

It's not that just because Russia said no to a Fly zone, or a military action by the US, that the UN has not done anything to help Libya. The problem is much deeper than that.

[giturbewan]

It's not that just because Russia said no to a Fly zone, or a military action by the US, that the UN has not done anything to help Libya. The problem is much deeper than that.

Imposing a no-fly zone is nothing less than an act of war that can easily force the nations involved to take further steps, including ground troops. Many of those bashing inaction on the part of the West, the Europeans and/or Obama are making it sound as if we were talking about a videogame. Especially so since it is not even clear WHO exactly we are supposed to support. The rebels are a pretty heterogeneous bunch of people with a wide variety of views and positions and have only days ago taken steps to establish a joint leadership. Stopping a dictator from butchering people sounds like a good and noble task but interfering without exactly knowing whose side we are taking is something that lessons from past interventions should tell us to be pretty cautious about. Humanitarian aid is another question though.