[Pharmaciest2007]

BBC News - Inside world's first hydrogen-powered production car

[Weislenalkata]

Dumb. Hydrogen is still most efficiently produced by mining. These guys want you to believe that this is some sort of free energy. Its horribly wasteful to produce hydrogen from water using electricity.

[Pharmaciest2007]

Dumb. Hydrogen is still most efficiently produced by mining. These guys want you to believe that this is some sort of free energy. Its horribly wasteful to produce hydrogen from water using electricity.

But I believe the hydrogen from fossil fuels will actually create more hydrocarbon than burning gasoline. If the water is separated by electricity generated by solar or wind it would be as near to zero pollution as possible at this time. Just remember one thing, the exhaust from the car is (wait for it)... water.

[h98hhYxM]

If they have any sense of history, the first hydro-car would be driven in Lakehurst, New Jersey.

[Pharmaciest2007]

If they have any sense of history, the first hydro-car would be driven in Lakehurst, New Jersey.

Too late, Hyrdrogen power cars, buses, etc. have be on the roads for years. Check out the Nova episode entitled The Invisible Flame It was made in the late 1970's.

[h98hhYxM]

It was a joke.

And if they have been working on hydro-cars for that long, why haven't they perfected it?

I would love cars that do not need gas. Ain't happening. Not until the Vulcans make first contact.

[Pharmaciest2007]

It was a joke.

And if they have been working on hydro-cars for that long, why haven't they perfected it?

I would love cars that do not need gas. Ain't happening. Not until the Vulcans make first contact.

Pardon me, chief.

Hydrogen powered cars in this country might never happen. But they might, Iran invades Iraq (no matter how irrational that might be it could happen inasmuch as irrationality rules in Iran) which would also threaten supplies from Kuwait, UAE, etc. Canada flexing it's muscle, Crazy Hugo doing something crazy, then Hydrogen becomes the source. Even without any of those scenarios other countries are moving on hydrogen.

For China, a country with huge pollution problems and a population that wants cars, hydrogen and fuel cells are about the only technology that they can turn to. With China's population of approaching 2 billion and India at over 1 billion the US market will be a smaller market and probably not the driving force of technology.

[Pharmaciest2007]

Actually, BMW produced a hydrogen combustion engine car.

BMW is pushing H2 technology in the Hydrogen 7, which so far has been driven mostly by celebrities (although Wired got behind the wheel of one a few years ago). Brad Pitt, Edward Norton and Cameron Diaz were among the early adopters, and Hilary Swank got one earlier this month.

Read More BMW Still Loves Hydrogen | Autopia | Wired.com

[h98hhYxM]

Colin,

I swear to you that nothing would give me more joy than to get rid of gas-powered cars. Ain't happening. They have been trying for 120 years to make a car better than what we got now and all they have come up with is fringe cars loved by fringe people who have the luxury of being "fringey".

[MilenaJaf]

They have been trying for 120 years to make a car better than what we got now and all they have come up with is fringe cars

Im pretty confident that 'they' haven't been trying too hard.

ps. my car sometimes spits unspent fuel out the tailpipe...then it ignites into a cool fireball. Choke on that, tree huggers!

[DailyRingtone]

But I believe the hydrogen from fossil fuels will actually create more hydrocarbon than burning gasoline. If the water is separated by electricity generated by solar or wind it would be as near to zero pollution as possible at this time. Just remember one thing, the exhaust from the car is (wait for it)... water.

"Separated by solar or wind" is sort of a red herring. If 1000 KW of solar energy is used to replace an equivalent amount of gasoline for cars, then other things that would have gotten that 1000 KW, say home lighting, would have to use energy from non-solar/wind generation instead. It isn't like there is a surplus of wind/solar energy generation.

The argument is that energy can be produced more efficiently in generation plants rather than in combustion engines. The idea of mass produced hydrogen is that you are shfting the energy creation from the tank to the grid.

[Pharmaciest2007]

Colin,

I swear to you that nothing would give me more joy than to get rid of gas-powered cars. Ain't happening. They have been trying for 120 years to make a car better than what we got now and all they have come up with is fringe cars loved by fringe people who have the luxury of being "fringey".

The question isn't will hydrogen replace gasoline? The questions are:

Will the conditions that led to gasoline be a reliable fuel source continue as they have i the past?

On this point that seems high unlikely. The oil companies don't control oil producing countries and the US is probably going to be more gun shy about sending it's Army to the Middle East in the future.

Will gasoline be clean to use in the cars in the future?

No. Auto manufacturers have nearly reached what science can get from trying to design a cleaner gas powered combustion engine. The growing number of cars on the road have out weighed advances in cleaner engine technology to create pollution problems which had been initially abated anti-pollution devices.

Gasoline will be apart of our transportation picture for the next 100 years but we, or the world at large, will probably diversify our energy sources. Chief, Adam, I'm not a pie in the sky proponent of hydrogen, but the whole situation has to be looked at in terms of economics, politics in this country and other countries. Then history and economics and politics have been at the mercy of one crazy man or woman with a match, gun, bomb, airliner, etc.

[Pharmaciest2007]

"Separated by solar or wind" is sort of a red herring. If 1000 KW of solar energy is used to replace an equivalent amount of gasoline for cars, then other things that would have gotten that 1000 KW, say home lighting, would have to use energy from non-solar/wind generation instead. It isn't like there is a surplus of wind/solar energy generation.

The argument is that energy can be produced more efficiently in generation plants rather than in combustion engines. The idea of mass produced hydrogen is that you are shfting the energy creation from the tank to the grid.

You are correct. But there are many variables to future energy supplies (see below with Chief). Also, pollution is a growing problem that can't be answered with oil, & coal.

[h98hhYxM]

The future of alternative autos is electricity. Hydrogen cars can blow up. Ethanol is a fraud.

The problem with electric cars is the same since they first appeared during the Chicago Cubs stint as World Series champions: reliablility.

Wouldn't it be great if we could tell OPEC to go f*** themselves?

[h98hhYxM]

EDITED. Double post.

[PypeDeft]

The future of alternative autos is electricity. Hydrogen cars can blow up. Ethanol is a fraud.

The problem with electric cars is the same since they first appeared during the Chicago Cubs stint as World Series champions: reliablility.

Wouldn't it be great if we could tell OPEC to go f*** themselves?

If we took the OPEC embargo seriously back in the 70's and treated it like a matter of national security, we could have been imported oil free long ago.

[DailyRingtone]

You are correct. But there are many variables to future energy supplies (see below with Chief). Also, pollution is a growing problem that can't be answered with oil, & coal.

The point is hydrogen cars don't address oil and coal because you still currently need to use that to make the hydrogen by supplying the energy. Hydrogen isn't the energy source in of itself. Hydrogen fuel cells are more akin to a battery.

Auto manufacturers have nearly reached what science can get from trying to design a cleaner gas powered combustion engine. I wouldn't agree with that at all. There is always a possibility someone will design a better mousetrap. It just may be easier and more efficient to go a different direction, but I never rule out innovation from finding new solutions.

[Pharmaciest2007]

The point is hydrogen cars don't address oil and coal because you still currently need to use that to make the hydrogen by supplying the energy. Hydrogen isn't the energy source in of itself. Hydrogen fuel cells are more akin to a battery.



I wouldn't agree with that at all. There is always a possibility someone will design a better mousetrap. It just may be easier and more efficient to go a different direction, but I never rule out innovation from finding new solutions.

There was a report on NPR a few years back about the technology the gas internal combustion engine reaching it's zenith in terms of cleanliness. Yes, possibly new technology will come along, but the same fortune could be told for hydrogen.

Regarding the source of energy for separating water into hydrogen & oxygen there are two points.

1. Hydrogen is a more efficient source of energy so some inefficiency in production can be offset in use. Also, if we consider production then we need numbers on gasoline production.

2. Since an electric engine is more efficient than an internal combustion engine overall less energy is used.

So comparing a tank of hydrogen to a tank of gas is apples and oranges.

Then the question of safety. Properly contained hydrogen is SAFER than gasoline. The normal hydrogen tank used in a car can be shot with a gun without an explosion.

If oil is readily available in the future without interruption, and politics in the Middle East, S. American, and Asia remain unchanged, and economic conditions go back to what we experienced growing up. Then oil shall always be king. However, the question of hydrogen as a source of energy will not be determined by it's pluses and minuses. It will be determined by unknown unknowns. If Iran closes the Gulf of Hormuz and China backs Iran... If Russia backs Hugo Chavez... History is an inconsistent ingredient to judge future stability.

[DailyRingtone]

There was a report on NPR a few years back about the technology the gas internal combustion engine reaching it's zenith in terms of cleanliness. Yes, possibly new technology will come along, but the same fortune could be told for hydrogen.

Right, but you listed it as an absolute.

[Pharmaciest2007]

Right, but you listed it as an absolute.

I said, "no" and "nearly", which in the full context isn't absolute.