[iceleliewBync]

The front page story of the NYT is jaw-dropping and certainly damning.


As in the American subprime crisis and the implosion of the American International Group, financial derivatives played a role in the run-up of Greek debt. Instruments developed by Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase and a wide range of other banks enabled politicians to mask additional borrowing in Greece, Italy and possibly elsewhere.

In dozens of deals across the Continent, banks provided cash upfront in return for government payments in the future, with those liabilities then left off the books. Greece, for example, traded away the rights to airport fees and lottery proceeds in years to come.
Wall St. Helped Greece to Mask Debt Fueling Europe’s Crisis - NYTimes.com

[gMUVgw71]

Sounds like certain countries are just like certain people. Gullible.

[iceleliewBync]

Sounds like certain countries are just like certain people. Gullible.

Can you imagine how the Greek public feels?


Greece took in a lot of people in the Albanian diaspora. Albanians fled to Greece and a few other countries to get away from a huge national pyramid scheme that collapsed and sucked the wealth out of the country---left almost everyone penniless.

So a lot of them fled to Greece to escape a problem that Greeks feel they themselves created and are responsible for.

Greeks by nature are quite xenophobic and they're upset because they feel Albanians fled to steal jobs from Greeks and live there, instead of fixing their crappy government.

If you've ever met a racist white Southerner from the Deep South... you will be taken aback by how angry and xenophobic some Greeks can get when you mention the Albanian diaspora in their presence.

I guess many Greeks can see through a political correctness fad and say what they feel---after all their civilization has been around thousands of years before Christ; how can we be critical of them for that?


I'm sure the United States can't be too popular right now with the Greek public, knowing that we had a central role to play in Greek politicians bankrupting the country.

[babopeddy]

MM:

I have noticed that Southern Europeans (Southern Italians, Greeks, etc.) are wonderfully unencumbered with the inanities of political correctness. They cannot be made to feel guilty the way descendants of Northern Europeans can. Ditto for Eastern Europeans, too. The playing of the race card, for example, I notice, never works on most of them.

God bless them!

[iceleliewBync]

MM:

I have noticed that Southern Europeans (Southern Italians, Greeks, etc.) are wonderfully unencumbered with the inanities of political correctness. They cannot be made to feel guilty the way descendants of Northern Europeans can. Ditto for Eastern Europeans, too. The playing of the race card, for example, I notice, never works on most of them.

God bless them!

The explanation I used for that was actually borrowed from a Greek I met when I was over there.

If your civilization's been around in the same spot for thousands of years, you do feel quite a sense of "entitlement" that's lost on other people.


To be fair though, Greeks may poo-poo the Turks all the time, but they've become co-dependant countries. It's kind-of like the relationship between the UK and France.

[babopeddy]

The explanation I used for that was actually borrowed from a Greek I met when I was over there.

If your civilization's been around in the same spot for thousands of years, you do feel quite a sense of "entitlement" that's lost on other people.


To be fair though, Greeks may poo-poo the Turks all the time, but they've become co-dependant countries. It's kind-of like the relationship between the UK and France.

I agree. It reminds me of what a Greek fellow I knew once said to my father: "When my ancestors were giving the world philosophy, democracy and literature, yours were running through the forests, painting themselves blue".

[iceleliewBync]

The various Socialist Democratic countries in the EU are now squabbling over how to both rescue Greece and punish it for a decade of spending out of control:

FT.com / Europe - Greece turns on EU critics


Considering that most white collar Greeks are public sector employees--it don't sit well that the Germans are demanding that the Greek government slash payrolls before they'll help bail them out of their crazy loans.

[Vomazoono]

the greeks didn't have to piss away the money. knives can be used for lots of things that don't involve killing yourself.

[ZX3URrBH]

MM:

I have noticed that Southern Europeans (Southern Italians, Greeks, etc.) are wonderfully unencumbered with the inanities of political correctness. They cannot be made to feel guilty the way descendants of Northern Europeans can. Ditto for Eastern Europeans, too. The playing of the race card, for example, I notice, never works on most of them.

God bless them!

Translation: isn't it wonderful how openly racist Greeks and other Southern Europeans are. God bless them!!

[babopeddy]

Translation: isn't it wonderful how openly racist Greeks and other Southern Europeans are. God bless them!!

Who said anything about race?

I think its great that they have pride in who and what they are, and do not let themselves be silenced by those who would make them ashamed of their heritage!

[ZX3URrBH]

Who said anything about race?

I think its great that they have pride in who and what they are, and do not let themselves be silenced by those who would make them ashamed of their heritage!

Dude, you were commenting about how wonderful it was that Greeks get all xenophobic about the Albanians in their midst. Expressing pride in your heritage is one thing, but xenophobia and racism is not something to be proud of AFAIC.

[Vomazoono]

To be fair though, Greeks may poo-poo the Turks all the time, but they've become co-dependant countries. It's kind-of like the relationship between the UK and France.

it's more than poo-poo. on more than one occasion on my short visit people expressed that Istanbul, which was once Constantinople, which was once Byzantium, was rightfully Greek. Oddly, the founder of modern day Turkey hails from Salonika (Thessaloniki) which is in northern Greece. I tend to agree with your assessment that they are dependent but it really hasn't developed the way it needs to because of the deep rooted dislike.

[Chubrehege]

The front page story of the NYT is jaw-dropping and certainly damning.

As in the American subprime crisis and the implosion of the American International Group, financial derivatives played a role in the run-up of Greek debt. Instruments developed by Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase and a wide range of other banks enabled politicians to mask additional borrowing in Greece, Italy and possibly elsewhere.

In dozens of deals across the Continent, banks provided cash upfront in return for government payments in the future, with those liabilities then left off the books. Greece, for example, traded away the rights to airport fees and lottery proceeds in years to come.


Wall St. Helped Greece to Mask Debt Fueling Europe’s Crisis - NYTimes.com

In other words Golden Slacks was covering Greece's ass and their own by playing both sides of the trade just like they did with subprime and CDS's. Now Greece is getting it greek style......Greece = Homeowner and Golden Slacks and it's merry band of hedge funds masquerading as banks are Countrywide and Wamu. No surprise....doing "god's work" indeed.....too bad it's a vengeful god like Zeus who unleashes the furies....

[iceleliewBync]

it's more than poo-poo. on more than one occasion on my short visit people expressed that Istanbul, which was once Constantinople, which was once Byzantium, was rightfully Greek. Oddly, the founder of modern day Turkey hails from Salonika (Thessaloniki) which is in northern Greece. I tend to agree with your assessment that they are dependent but it really hasn't developed the way it needs to because of the deep rooted dislike.

You're correct. The dependency between Greece has with Turkey is totally economic. A lot of tourists to Greece also make stopovers to Turkey, which Turkey is also dependant on just like Greece is for European summer vacations, and merchant shipping between the two Mediterranean capitals has gone on unimpeded, totally ignoring most of the political disputes.

The bickering over Cyprus will probably go on for another 1,000 years. Both civilizations have been around forever, so they have time to figure it out. Lately tho Turkey has been more economically prosperous than Greece, which probably has some Greek politicians peeved.

The locals in both countries for the most part ignore the disputes. It's been this way seemingly forever, it will always be this way, so why change the status quo.

[gMUVgw71]

Can you imagine how the Greek public feels?


Greece took in a lot of people in the Albanian diaspora. Albanians fled to Greece and a few other countries to get away from a huge national pyramid scheme that collapsed and sucked the wealth out of the country---left almost everyone penniless.

So a lot of them fled to Greece to escape a problem that Greeks feel they themselves created and are responsible for.

Greeks by nature are quite xenophobic and they're upset because they feel Albanians fled to steal jobs from Greeks and live there, instead of fixing their crappy government.

If you've ever met a racist white Southerner from the Deep South... you will be taken aback by how angry and xenophobic some Greeks can get when you mention the Albanian diaspora in their presence.

I guess many Greeks can see through a political correctness fad and say what they feel---after all their civilization has been around thousands of years before Christ; how can we be critical of them for that?


I'm sure the United States can't be too popular right now with the Greek public, knowing that we had a central role to play in Greek politicians bankrupting the country.

Actually all the (amercian born-philadelphia bred) greeks I know tend to be extremely racist and won't even use "american" plumbers, lawyers, etc.


Also, they are super egotistical, and swear they could never be wrong.


I'm not shocked at all that the gov't of the motherland works the same way.

[dosyrotsbop]

Dude, you were commenting about how wonderful it was that Greeks get all xenophobic about the Albanians in their midst. Expressing pride in your heritage is one thing, but xenophobia and racism is not something to be proud of AFAIC.

No, dude, that is just how you understood what Username said, which is a misunderstanding on your part. You obviously have no background on the history of the situation, so your 2 cents worth here is not worth much.

[dosyrotsbop]

Actually all the (amercian born-philadelphia bred) greeks I know tend to be extremely racist and won't even use "american" plumbers, lawyers, etc.


Also, they are super egotistical, and swear they could never be wrong.


I'm not shocked at all that the gov't of the motherland works the same way.

Well, you must know a very small population - and what does not selecting an american plumber have to do with being racist anyway? They tend to use people that speak their native language.
Furthermore, your analysis of the greeks as super egotistical is comical - you are oblivious to the background of the situation and are applying your 'experience' with the greeks as an explanation of the situation.

[iceleliewBync]

In other words Golden Slacks was covering Greece's ass and their own by playing both sides of the trade just like they did with subprime and CDS's. Now Greece is getting it greek style......Greece = Homeowner and Golden Slacks and it's merry band of hedge funds masquerading as banks are Countrywide and Wamu. No surprise....doing "god's work" indeed.....too bad it's a vengeful god like Zeus who unleashes the furies....

Yeah it's not a shock, and I'm not surprised in the lease that two banks that Geithner worked so hard to protect (Goldman and JPM) are at the center of these derivative trades.

The bailout will mean the EU will be printing money to the tune of $300BN USD or more in the very short term. I think that's why the Forex traders have already sent the euro plunging. Everyone knows what's coming.

Italy is also in no better fiscal shape than Greece is. It's like the contagion all over again back when Bear Stearns collapsed.

[iceleliewBync]

Actually all the (amercian born-philadelphia bred) greeks I know tend to be extremely racist and won't even use "american" plumbers, lawyers, etc.

Also, they are super egotistical, and swear they could never be wrong.

I'm not shocked at all that the gov't of the motherland works the same way.

That really only applies to SOME US-born Greeks whose parents were recent transplants. That social behavior isn't generational.

To be clear, in Greece proper it's not racism but xenophobia, and it stretches far back into their history. They have a strong sense of nationalism (which also conflicts with their other desire to be an EU member).

If the US was a land that was taken over and ruled by several completely different types of government over much of our history, we would be behaving and acting a lot differently than we do now.


I always tell friends that happen to be going to Greece on vacation, "remember, Greeks invented the words chaos and drama. Remember that any time you get in a Greek taxicab or get on one of those island hovercrafts." (Greeks are notoriously reckless drivers)

[gMUVgw71]

Well, you must know a very small population - and what does not selecting an american plumber have to do with being racist anyway? They tend to use people that speak their native language.
Furthermore, your analysis of the greeks as super egotistical is comical - you are oblivious to the background of the situation and are applying your 'experience' with the greeks as an explanation of the situation.

er, yes.