[payloansday]

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

The Tories said Labour had presided over a decade of spiralling violence.

In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.

The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:

* The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
* It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
* The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
* It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.

But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.

In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677. Link

[gorbasevhuynani]

Could this have anything to do with their overly restrictive (in my opinion) gun laws?

I'd like to see how this correlates to when they started to make it illegal (basically) to own a gun.

[Pjayjukr]

It's not that surprising to me, actually, since Britain is the most "Americanized" country in the EU, and they have gone a lot further in dismantling the welfare state than their continental neighbors, such as France, Germany, the Netherlands. Not sure about the correlation between restrictive gun laws, but I do find it interesting that they are trying to lay a portion of the blame on the extension of the hours in which liquor is allowed to be served. I remember how puritanical it seemed going out in London and being kicked out before 11pm for last call, which wasn't that long ago.

[valiumnopresc]

The spike in crime certainly correlates with the gun ban, imposed in the wake of Dunblane. I find it difficult to believe this was sheer coincidence.

I should point out that the Republic of South Africa also has extremely strict gun laws, and leads the industrialized world in murder. RSA's heritage is British, along with Boer. The policies tend to be similar - with similar results.

[payloansday]

Gun control in the UK

Its a good vid even if its made by the NRA.

[SmuffNuSMaxqh]

mmmm.....that's a tad sensationalistic article.

I've never been to England, I doubt is as bad as the article says it is, of course there must be crime, but more violent than the US?

They mention that in the article, but they don't show numbers to compare it or sustain it.

It's ranked 13th out of 27 countries in homicides, not good, but no Somalia neither.

Also, I would like to know what do they consider Violent Crimes, I bet a big chunk on reported "violent" incidents are something like drunk fights in pubs or things along that line, not exactly shooting amish girls at a school, beating a random guy to death over spilled beer at a sports bar, beating with a hammer some random passanger in the subway or killing and eating your toddler's brain, etc just to name a few of what I imagine when I see the word "violent crime"

Actually, scrolling down on the article (after a convenient break in the story):
But criminologists say crime figures can be affected by many factors, including different criminal justice systems and differences in how crime is reported and measured.

In Britain, an affray is considered a violent crime, while in other countries it will only be logged if a person is physically injured. So probably even a heated discussion, with pulling and pushing involved but no injuries or hitting is a "violent crime", if anything that shows me it's a pretty peaceful country, since it consider such things as violent.


Then again, I don't think UK is paradise, don't think such country exists.

[Pjayjukr]

Yes, I agree that the way crimes are counted and classified makes a major difference--politicians and law enforcement can tweak numbers and statistics to suit their agendas of a given moment. To wit, the much touted numbers that the murder rate in Philly is way down, to me, a lot of this seems like smoke and mirrors employed by the Nutter regime.

I checked out the legal definition of affray and you are quite correct!:

In the Public Order Act (1986) the British government replaced the common law offence [of affray] with a statutory definition at ¶3 as follows:

"A person is guilty of affray if he uses or threatens unlawful violence towards another and his conduct is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his personal safety.

"Where 2 or more persons use or threaten the unlawful violence, it is the conduct of them taken together that must be considered for the purposes of (the above).

"For the purposes of this section a threat cannot be made by the use of words alone.

"No person of reasonable firmness need actually be, or be likely to be, present at the scene.

"Affray may be committed in private as well as in public places."

[KneefeZes]

I wonder if violent crimes in the North of Ireland were included in these statistics. If so, that would go a long way of explaining some of these figures.

[Pjayjukr]

Good point, as the article does employ the national designations of "UK" and "Britain" both of which refer to the conglomeration of England, Wales, Scotland AND Northern Ireland.

[valiumnopresc]

I checked out the legal definition of affray and you are quite correct!:

In the Public Order Act (1986) the British government replaced the common law offence [of affray] with a statutory definition at ¶3 as follows:

"A person is guilty of affray if he uses or threatens unlawful violence towards another and his conduct is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his personal safety.

"Where 2 or more persons use or threaten the unlawful violence, it is the conduct of them taken together that must be considered for the purposes of (the above).

"For the purposes of this section a threat cannot be made by the use of words alone.

Sounds somewhat like terroristic threat.

Terroristic Threat Law & Legal Definition

[valiumnopresc]

The U.S. definition, as used by the FBI, is rather broad:

In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. Violent crimes are defined in the UCR Program as those offenses which involve force or threat of force. . Violent Crime - Crime in the United States 2007

This would appear include crimes similar to the British definition of affray.

[Pjayjukr]

Sounds somewhat like terroristic threat.

Terroristic Threat Law & Legal Definition

Sailaway, you might be interested to note that the common law defintion of affray (before specific statutory definitions replaced it) expressly stated that bearing arms did not of itself constitute an affray "unless it be accompanied with such circumstances as are apt to terrify the people".

[Opperioav]

Crime rates have fallen in N. Ireland since the peace agreement in 1998.
Ironically even prior to that the crime rates were lower than in the rest of the UK according to statistics.
In fact from 1969-1998 the total death count was 3477. I am confident that this ranks lower than the murder rate in many major cities in US and the rest of the UK.

[KneefeZes]

Crime rates have fallen in N. Ireland since the peace agreement in 1998.
Ironically even prior to that the crime rates were lower than in the rest of the UK according to statistics.
In fact from 1969-1998 the total death count was 3477. I am confident that this ranks lower than the murder rate in many major cities in US and the rest of the UK.

While I don't disagree with anything you're saying, I'd also add that many of the crimes such as punishment shootings are not tallied in those statistics. Also, the crimes that happened in Catholic ghettos such as the Falls were, and are, routinely under-reported if they're reported at all. That is the consequence of having a population that is largely distrustful of the PSNI.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that statistics only tell part of the story in the North and can't be relied on for a true picture.

Also, the resurgence of "dissident Republican" activity means that the figures could continue to rise. Today's Derry Journal paints a bleak pictures for example...

This is not to say that the UK has the same kind of violent crime we do here, my point was only to say that the inclusion of the North's crime rate could have thrown off the average if they indeed were including not only the troubles related deaths, but also the "regular" crime so evident in a place where unemployment is well above 10% in some areas.

[Opperioav]

You make some valid points I guess though I would like to see some evidence of unreported murders. Have you read somewhere about that? Crime/assault yes but not murder imo.

From what I was looking at the unemployement rate over all is still lower than the UK as a whole. For some years N. Ireland was benefiting economically from hanging on the tail of the Celtic Tiger boom in the South though that too has waned. The Cross border cooperation also helped industry in the North.

I guess this is a different topic though.
I am thinking that UKs overall crime rate may also have to do with some unbridled immigration and the creation of a melting pot that the country was not ready for in many ways.

[valiumnopresc]

Sailaway, you might be interested to note that the common law defintion of affray (before specific statutory definitions replaced it) expressly stated that bearing arms did not of itself constitute an affray "unless it be accompanied with such circumstances as are apt to terrify the people".

Thanks, good to know. I think this would also be the basis of the current interpretation of the First Amendment i.e. that speech is generally protected, but shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre is essentially an affray.

[KneefeZes]

You make some valid points I guess though I would like to see some evidence of unreported murders. Have you read somewhere about that? Crime/assault yes but not murder imo.

From what I was looking at the unemployement rate over all is still lower than the UK as a whole. For some years N. Ireland was benefiting economically from hanging on the tail of the Celtic Tiger boom in the South though that too has waned. The Cross border cooperation also helped industry in the North.

I guess this is a different topic though.
I am thinking that UKs overall crime rate may also have to do with some unbridled immigration and the creation of a melting pot that the country was not ready for in many ways.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to infer that there were unreported murders, but more so unreported violent crimes such as robbery, assault ect. I believe the stats concerning homicides.

Where the employment stats have certainly improved over the course of the decade, there are still pockets of extreme unemployment. The Celtic Tiger only reached so far unfortunately, and it didn't rectify the situation entirely. A quick glance at the last year will show that numerous companies and firms have left the north and have taken the jobs with them. While I have no evidence of such, I honestly believe that Catholic unemployment numbers are historically distorted by the Orange political machine, and thus can not be completely known. There is every motivation to obscure high levels of unemployment among the Catholic population to hide the fact that they have been historically discriminated against by the Unionist governments.

But yeah, that's a completely different animal to take on. Lots of complex economic theory to digest and interpret for a complete picture, and frankly, I'm no economist.

[valiumnopresc]

I should point out that the Daily Mail story Cerb cited appears to use enumerated figures of actual crimes reported, yet it closely mirrors the International Crime Victimization Survey, which uses surveys and, thus, can account for unreported crimes. The ICVS refers to what we generally would call "violent crimes" as "contact crimes" and there might be a slight disparity between definitions, but the two analyses seem to generally support each other.

A quarter of English are victims of crime - Telegraph

(Note this is a pretty old, but useful link. It used to have some excellent graphs )

[Pjayjukr]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to infer that there were unreported murders, but more so unreported violent crimes such as robbery, assault ect. I believe the stats concerning homicides.

In case anyone is interested, here is a map of the reported crimes in N. Ireland in 2008, published by the Belfast Telegraph, sort of similar to the Philly versions published by the Inquirer.

Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

[KneefeZes]

In case anyone is interested, here is a map of the reported crimes in N. Ireland in 2008, published by the Belefast Telegraph, sort of similar to the Philly versions published by the Inquirer.

Belfasttelegraph.co.uk

That's only as good as the reported crimes I'm afraid. Go to Andytown in Belfast and ask how many of them call the PSNI when they're a victim.

Cool resource however!