[gogFloark]

The Diffusionists Have Landed.

[Ibrattnofich]

The method of carbon dating leaves to much room for error. A 50 year difference don't mean much. Maybe it's 50 years after Columbus?

[retyopj]

South and Central America. How did you assume Texas?

I'm sorry I didn't see this sooner. Ch. 48 used to have this guy, Rev. Something or Other on in the morning and one day he was talking about this area in Texas which was "visited" by the Phoenicians. He showed these "water tanks", carved out of stone which are similar to something found in ancient Phoenicia. But then showed a image of a "boat" with a "sail", and "stars" showing how the Phoenicians got there.

The thing that got my attention was that the Rev. said this image was on the roof of a cave. Now when something is on a ceiling point of view is subject. I made my own drawing of what I saw on TV and turned it upside down and saw an image of a mask or face. The boat was a hat, the sail the mouth, the stars eyes.

[retyopj]

...The same goes with the Phonecians who navigated into the Atlantic both north up the European Coast and South along the African coast. It is theorized that they also were caught up in the Equatoral currents and ended up in the Americas. The pyramids and similarity in glyphs is cited as evidence of contact between the cultures.

All very interesting theories, and some that I would not discount 100% even if they sound implausible. Civilizations have done some amazing things so I'll keep an open mind. But I would not also call them a sure thing by any means of the imagination. The lack of concrete evidence is still huge.

One huge problem with the Phoenicians coming to America is that the Phoenicians pre-date the Central American pyramids and glyphs almost 1000 years. I suppose the Phoenicians could have to some other land and not left a trace for 1000 years and then sailed to Central America.

Or possibly it was mass alien abduction. I know this is possible because I saw it on ST: Voyager, AND Enterprize. So we have 2 sources, it must be true.

[SaraKonradtt]

One huge problem with the Phoenicians coming to America is that the Phoenicians pre-date the Central American pyramids and glyphs almost 1000 years. I suppose the Phoenicians could have to some other land and not left a trace for 1000 years and then sailed to Central America.

Or possibly it was mass alien abduction. I know this is possible because I saw it on ST: Voyager, AND Enterprize. So we have 2 sources, it must be true.

True.

Beyond the Vikings, I'm just becoming familiar with all of these other possible pre-columbian voyages to the Americas. It's something I really never specifically looked up. I have placed this on my list of "things to look up and read more about." I have a vacation coming up in a few weeks. I may kill time on the deck looking into this further. Proven or far fetched all of the stuff I have initially read was very interesting.

As for the aliens, I recall seeing a show that said Mezoamerican civilization was the result of alien visitations. (insert spacey synthesizer sounds)

[Anypeny]

COPENHAGEN (Reuters) – The 15th century Vinland Map, the first known map to show part of America before explorer Christopher Columbus landed on the continent, is almost certainly genuine, a Danish expert said Friday.

Controversy has swirled around the map since it came to light in the 1950s, many scholars suspecting it was a hoax meant to prove that Vikings were the first Europeans to land in North America -- a claim confirmed by a 1960 archaeological find.

Doubts about the map lingered even after the use of carbon dating as a way of establishing the age of an object.

"All the tests that we have done over the past five years -- on the materials and other aspects -- do not show any signs of forgery," Rene Larsen, rector of the School of Conservation under the Royal Danish Academy of Fine Arts, told Reuters.

He presented his team's findings at an international cartographers' conference in the Danish capital Friday.

The map shows both Greenland and a western Atlantic island "Vinilanda Insula," the Vinland of the Icelandic sagas, now linked by scholars to Newfoundland where Norsemen under Leif Eriksson settled around AD 1000.

Larsen said his team carried out studies of the ink, writing, wormholes and parchment of the map, which is housed at Yale University in the United States.

He said wormholes, caused by wood beetles, were consistent with wormholes in the books with which the map was bound.
Link

[VYholden]

I thought that a warming period around that time allowed settlements in Iceland and Greenland that allowed further expedition to North America. When it chilled out they never returned.

[Pjayjukr]

When I was growing up in Boston, my family owned a beach property in Hampton, NH. There's a very interesting obelisk there which has as yet undecipherable Norse type runes on it (of course, nowadays it's in the center of a honky tonk little shore neighborhood with alleys named "Viking Lane" and such). For me, that was all the proof I ever needed that the Vikings had indeed "discovered" the Americas way before Columbus's great-great-great grandparents were ever born.

[SaraKonradtt]

Between 300BC and 1000AD The great seafarers the Polynesians spread from New Guinea across the Pacific settling practically every habitable island.

The Norse another great seafaring people in 1000 reached North America.

These are 2 example of societies that were not restricted on the ocean by having the ability to sail beyond the sight of land and survive.

If you have any doubt, check out this settlement in Newfoundland.

L'Anse aux Meadows National Historic Site of Canada

The reason the Norse do not get the credit they deserve over Columbus was because of the purposes the trips were taken under. One was for gold and the other was for cod.

But take a look at where cod live in the Atlantic, it totally mimics the paths the Norse took westward from their homeland onto Iceland, then Greenland, and ending in Newfoundland.

[Pjayjukr]

But take a look at where cod live in the Atlantic, it totally mimics the paths the Norse took westward from their homeland onto Iceland, then Greenland, and ending in Newfoundland.

Great map, and yes, the Portuguese, too, chased schools of cod all the way to northern North America a good century before Columbus although they didn't establish any permanent settlements or leave any artifacts (except for a couple of maps) behind.

[retyopj]

Great map, and yes, the Portuguese, too, chased schools of cod all the way to northern North America a good century before Columbus although they didn't establish any permanent settlements or leave any artifacts (except for a couple of maps) behind.

And the Basque who may have been fur trapping in N. American before Columbus.

[SaraKonradtt]

I was not specifically familiar with the Pre Columbian voyages of the Portugues and Basques, and in looking up their sailing feats I have also come across information that the Americas may possibly have also have been visited by the Welsh, Phonecians, Chinese, and West Africans.

[Prosocorneliay]

Basque fur traders? The others all seem plausible since if you follow the cod long enough you'll reach Newfoundland, but isn't that an awful long way to go for a few skins?

Although the Chinese certainly had the means to, in 1400, they never actually organized an expedition across the Pacific, in part, I think, because nobody east of Japan traded with them; one wonders, though, what would have happened if the Chinese and the Portuguese had made contact with one another in the Indian Ocean basin. Sooner or later somebody was going to attempt to cross the ocean--either to Europe or Asia, depending on the direction traveled--and run the Americas between them. If the Chinese had crossed, the history of Mesoamerica and the Andean coast would have likely been radically different.

[Pjayjukr]

Actually, the Chinese did an incredible amount of exploration in the early 15th century before the Portuguese ever got out of northern Africa, led by a colorful eunuch admiral, Cheng Ho who made voyages all the way to SE Africa and all along the Indian and Pacific oceans, and possibly even made it to the Americas.

This history has recently come to light in the West and is recounted in a book called 1421:The Year The Chinese Discovered The World; the maps included in it are particularly impressive . The emperor in China at the time (whose name I do not recall) became greatly apprehensive about all of this rapid expansion and ordered his admirals to cease and desist; basically, this marked the era when China turned back onto itself, shunning further exploration. In Portugal, on the other hand, the king and the nobility pressed for further expansion, igniting the Age of Discoveries, which led to the eventual inevitable decline of Portugal and ushered in the modern era of European dominance and colonialism of the rest of the world.

It's fascinating to think what the globe would look like today had the Chinese pressed on and the Portuguese faltered.

[retyopj]

I was not specifically familiar with the Pre Columbian voyages of the Portugues and Basques, and in looking up their sailing feats I have also come across information that the Americas may possibly have also have been visited by the Welsh, Phonecians, Chinese, and West Africans.

The Phonecians? In Texas? If it's what I think it is it's crap.

[retyopj]

Basque fur traders? The others all seem plausible since if you follow the cod long enough you'll reach Newfoundland, but isn't that an awful long way to go for a few skins?...

The French did it and made money. I believe the article I read was in National Geo to the Smithsonian. Basically the Basque for whatever reason may have gone fur trapping in N. Am. and were known to have many fur and of good quality while the rest of Europe had smaller amounts and lesser quality. If the demand for fur is high and the supply in Europe low then N. America isn't so far. As I recall this was shortly before Columbus.

Whether they actually trapped the animals or traded with Natives isn't clear. However, it seems the Basque had their own numbering system and navigation system.

[SaraKonradtt]

Basque fur traders? The others all seem plausible since if you follow the cod long enough you'll reach Newfoundland, but isn't that an awful long way to go for a few skins?

Although the Chinese certainly had the means to, in 1400, they never actually organized an expedition across the Pacific, in part, I think, because nobody east of Japan traded with them; one wonders, though, what would have happened if the Chinese and the Portuguese had made contact with one another in the Indian Ocean basin. Sooner or later somebody was going to attempt to cross the ocean--either to Europe or Asia, depending on the direction traveled--and run the Americas between them. If the Chinese had crossed, the history of Mesoamerica and the Andean coast would have likely been radically different.

Nothing seems to be as concrete and the evidence left by the Norse. You cant deny the Norse were in the Americas way before Columbus.

The info about the Basques I saw talks about whaling in the North Atlantic feeding grounds.

The info about the Chinese are some fifth century texts that that mentions the existence a continent beyond the ocean 7000 miles east of Japan. However no evidence beyond that.

The Welsh crossing is referenced in their folklore.

The North African crossing are credited to fishermen that possibly got caught up in the Equatoral current by venturing to far from the African mainland and wound up in Central America. There are Omlec and other Pre-Columbian civilization carvings that have negroid features and are used as evidence of contact.

The same goes with the Phonecians who navigated into the Atlantic both north up the European Coast and South along the African coast. It is theorized that they also were caught up in the Equatoral currents and ended up in the Americas. The pyramids and similarity in glyphs is cited as evidence of contact between the cultures.

All very interesting theories, and some that I would not discount 100% even if they sound implausible. Civilizations have done some amazing things so I'll keep an open mind. But I would not also call them a sure thing by any means of the imagination. The lack of concrete evidence is still huge.

[SaraKonradtt]

The Phonecians? In Texas? If it's what I think it is it's crap.

South and Central America. How did you assume Texas?

[Prosocorneliay]

I am aware the Chinese did some serious exploration, but Zhuang He only explored the Indian Ocean basin, and even then it was explorable by and large as a result of Chinese hegemony in the region (due to trade contacts). If they had not closed their borders, though, it is highly likely the Chinese would have gained hegemony over the Pacific Ocean basin by 1600 and would have been in contact with Mexica, the Tarascans, and Tawantinsuyu. I would surmise that if there was a significant Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean (instead of a vacuum which still hasn't healed) when the Portuguese made contact with the East African city-states they would almost certainly have launched an eastward exploration, to contact Portugal more directly. And would have run into North America in the process.

P.S. The French knew to fur-trap because the general knowledge of the continent was already there. How could the Basque trap furs if they didn't know (or aren't supposed to know) that the place existed?

[Pjayjukr]

P.S. The French knew to fur-trap because the general knowledge of the continent was already there. How could the Basque trap furs if they didn't know (or aren't supposed to know) that the place existed?

I had no knowledge of the Basques either, but I surmise they might have followed the cod as well and then switched to a more lucrative fur trapping trade. The map that Hozeramma posted really makes me want to check out one of those pop history books on "Cod" (I think other commodities in this genre include "Salt" and "Rum," but I tend to consume them and then forget about them).