[Zpxbawtz]

You are in the minority, Traveller.

Andrew

Not only that, but he's under the influence of drugs when he posts.

[Nurse_sero]

Not only that, but he's under the influence of drugs when he posts.

Sometimes it helps I suppose.

[corolaelwis]

Sometimes it helps I suppose.

It certainly does...Mark Twain obviously should be on them .

I wonder if he can come up with anymore "He put the Dick in Dick Cheney" jokes? Goes to show his intellect i guess....

[corolaelwis]

. . .just like the Republicans were gonna keep control of both houses of Congress last November?

Errr about Novembr time or so i did say that we would lose both Houses and things looked really bad...

[corolaelwis]

He didn't have to resign, he chose to resign. He will probably be reappointed as PM.

Well if he didn't "chose" to go he would have faced a vote of no confidence and lost.

He won't be re-appointed, the Speaker has been asked to allow the Pres. to become the new PM.

[corolaelwis]

Not only that, but he's under the influence of drugs when he posts.

I think you seriously do need some drugs, ever thought of ridilin or something to help with ADHD?

Got anymore "He put the Dick in Dick Cheney" jokes for us then?

Watching paint dry is funnier than reading the utter garbage ass trash you come out with.

[corolaelwis]

The majority want the US out of Iraq. The majority want affordable and equitable health care. The majority want the governments to do something about global warming/pollution. The majority want what the leaders have never given them.

So why is it we re-elected Bush and Cheney and Britain re-elected Blair? That Howard has won lection 4 times and Japan re-elected Kouzumi? And those just the record breaking election victories to talk of.

You yourselves voted for a conservative government that wants to pull out of Kyoto and wants closer relation with D.C.

Prodi resigned becasue the Italian senate voted against his foreign policy decision to agree to the construction of a US military base. He did not resign because of pressure from the right, he resigned because of pressure from the left.... you misread that story entirely.

Nope, i know that's why he resigned, my point was his foreign policy fiaco was because his own party wouldn't let hm be close to the U.S. where as when Silvio did it with a similarish majority in the Senate on he other side he actually maaged to go as far as keeping troops in Iraq for 3 whole years.

You are in the minority, Traveller.

Look you and Mexico just elected conservative governments, as did Japan and Australia and Britain loks likely to folow suit in the next generalnot to mention Chirac's failures in France don't seem to stop his hardlined interior minister from defeating the left in France, yet again! Germany, Poland, the Ukraine, Romania and others have centre right governments...the wold is moving further and further towards conservatism.

[mpzoFeJs]

To me it is bittersweet to see a foreign populace protest an American criminal when Americans won't organize long enough to do the same. This country deserves what it gets.

[corolaelwis]

Have you seen what our protests in the U.S. are like???

[masaredera]

So why is it we re-elected Bush and Cheney and Britain re-elected Blair? That Howard has won lection 4 times and Japan re-elected Kouzumi? And those just the record breaking election victories to talk of.

Through lies, deciept, and the complete miseducation of voters. Standard political fair. Did you know that the vast majority of Bush supporters in 2000 though he was for Kyoto???

Polls constantly show that people want what their politicians refuse to talkabout. This is true especially in the US.

You yourselves voted for a conservative government that wants to pull out of Kyoto and wants closer relation with D.C. A minority government that represents less than 30% of the population. Not the majority.


Nope, i know that's why he resigned, my point was his foreign policy fiaco was because his own party wouldn't let hm be close to the U.S. where as when Silvio did it with a similarish majority in the Senate on he other side he actually maaged to go as far as keeping troops in Iraq for 3 whole years. Against the will of the majority of the people, which is why he lost. Which is my point.


Look you and Mexico just elected conservative governments, as did Japan and Australia and Britain looks likely to follow suit in the next generalnot to mention Chirac's failures in France don't seem to stop his hardlined interior minister from defeating the left in France, yet again! Germany, Poland, the Ukraine, Romania and others have centre right governments...the wold is moving further and further towards conservatism. Actually, as a function of pure numbers of people globally, the world has been moving closer to socialism. (defined as affordable education, health care, and social assistance, etc..) There is only one country on the planet where the trend is opposite, the USA. And according to polls, this is the opposite of what people want.

Andrew

[corolaelwis]

Through lies, deciept, and the complete miseducation of voters. Standard political fair.

Okay so basically we we were conned into a second Bush term were we? Is that the standard for us or everyone in the world. The thing is that for 4 years evryone knew what Bsh was about...so say the first time we put him in office the voters were duped, how can you explain the 65 millon who came out and re-elected him the second time?? We obviously liked what we had.

Did you know that the vast majority of Bush supporters in 2000 though he was for Kyoto???

No i certainly didn't; though to be honest i didnt ever think that and that made me support him all the more, and i'm sure was the case for a lot of folk.

Polls constantly show that people want what their politicians refuse to talkabout. This is true especially in the US.

Right but when it comes down to it there is always generaly a right or left government in place an very rarely a centrist/inependant one. People however frustrated always seem to vote an "old boys club" style government, a "typical" politician as usual. A classic example would be Britain in which over the last 200 years only two parties have had power. Can you giv me an example of single country where an "independant" or "third rail" party has ever succeeded? Another example would be us, or even Australia, look how long 2 parties have had dominance...

A minority government that represents less than 30% of the population. Not the majority.

Fair enough but the biggest chunk of votes that went to any one party went to them. You yourself spoke of how corrupt the rulng liberal party was, but which way did you vote? For them again?

Against the will of the majority of the people, which is why he lost. Which is my point.

Really? Apparenty the will of the British and Australia and obviousy American people is against the war so why did we al re-elect leaders who took us to war?

[markbila]

No not at all is it?

Really i mean its only the Australian taxpayer who has to pay for the security so, well i mean why advocate it guys (especially for those of you downunder).

You know nothing's gonna happen, its just mean paying those guys overtime or whatever, totally pointless.

In this country we have NEVER needed anything like the security for this visit - it is more than when Bush came here a few years ago.

There are snipers poised waiting for trouble for fuck's sake!

This either indicates its all for show (showing who I have no idea - the public, or your guys to prove we're tough in our support and are on ypur side), or it indicates that Cheney is the most hated man ever to visit our shores.

Probably a bit of both.

I would say, based on what I have heard especially in the last few months, that anti US sentiment is on the rise.

And no way is it the far left. Its the ordinary person on the street, carpet layers, mechanics etc ... as well as people attending management seminars. Any opportunity to bash America, and people are on to it.

Our government may be your government's ally - but the people are not.

[corolaelwis]

What does it matter if the government is allied with us?

I think its a cse of our government asking your guys to beef up security as the SS are just taking it easy for a while and i think your lot have just gone overboard and said "Look at what we can do, too".

[masaredera]

Okay so basically we we were conned into a second Bush term were we? Is that the standard for us or everyone in the world. The thing is that for 4 years evryone knew what Bsh was about...so say the first time we put him in office the voters were duped, how can you explain the 65 millon who came out and re-elected him the second time?? We obviously liked what we had.

Its got nothing to do with Bush in particular. Its the same as always, its often referred to as the democratic deficit. Its very common in rich developed western nations, and not so common in poorer nations that have been under our colonial/imperial thumb for decades. I.e., Bolivia and Venezuela have democratic participation amongst the citizenry that makes one wonder if we in North America even have a clue what democracy is.

There are lots of definitions of democratic deficit but to me it means essentially that there is a huge gap between what people want, the lack of a sense of democratic empowerment, and how far the elected leaders are are willing to go to honor the principles of democracy.

You mentioned the word 'conned' - yes, I think that that is essentailly what an election is in North America, a big con job. They lie, manipulate, cheat, steal, bribe, and swindle in order to get elected. That is the state of politics here.


Right but when it comes down to it there is always generaly a right or left government in place an very rarely a centrist/inependant one. People however frustrated always seem to vote an "old boys club" style government, a "typical" politician as usual. A classic example would be Britain in which over the last 200 years only two parties have had power. Can you giv me an example of single country where an "independant" or "third rail" party has ever succeeded? Another example would be us, or even Australia, look how long 2 parties have had dominance... Labor party in Britain. The NDPs in Canada have had moderate success. The green party is always gaining ground in many countries every year.

I think in US history things like womens rights, civil rights, general progressive movements have all come from 3rd party movements that were appropriated by the traditional parties.

But you are right, there has been a dominance of politics by the traditional elite, which i think is a big problem, and leads to a democratic deficit.

Fair enough but the biggest chunk of votes that went to any one party went to them. You yourself spoke of how corrupt the rulng liberal party was, but which way did you vote? For them again?
Biggest chunk yes, but far from a majority. They have very little power, just the other day the parliament voted to honor our commitment to Kyoto, soemthing that sitting government promised no to do, but they have little choice now. I have never voted for the traditional parties. I always vote green or NDP. If it was green or NDP that were traditional and elite i would vote liberal or conservative. I can't ever vote for the entrenched.


Really? Apparenty the will of the British and Australia and obviousy American people is against the war so why did we al re-elect leaders who took us to war? Good question, and it is especially confusing when one sees that the vast majority of people in those countries do not support the war. A further irony is that in Canada we did not join the war and we ended up putting a government in power that would have, and all through that there has never been support for the iraq war in canada amongst any significant part of the population.

Andrew

[corolaelwis]

Good question, and it is especially confusing when one sees that the vast majority of people in those countries do not support the war. A further irony is that in Canada we did not join the war and we ended up putting a government in power that would have, and all through that there has never been support for the iraq war in canada amongst any significant part of the population.

Andrew your an intelligent guy...the reason it seems confusing is becuse of what is potrtrayed of people's views. See for every protestor who goes around saying Bush killed Children and Cheney eats babies, how many do you think sit at home and support the war? I support the war, but i don't go around the streets shouting and screaming about it do i?? For all of us who do support the war do you ever hear about it? Does it ever get mentioned? There are a lot of folks voices who never get heard as far as public opinion goes because we're not so vocal but our way of politics is different, we wait until election day and actually go vote in mass numbers because we already know who and what we're gonna vote for, we rally our bases differently. We don't go tell the entire nation "Vote for us as he did this or that" but we respond to those we get energy and feedback fom ourselves, those likely to actually vote for us. Its a completely diffeent system and i'll get into it more in refference to your statement about Democratic deficits.

[masaredera]

Andrew your an intelligent guy...the reason it seems confusing is becuse of what is potrtrayed of people's views. See for every protestor who goes around saying Bush killed Children and Cheney eats babies, how many do you think sit at home and support the war? I support the war, but i don't go around the streets shouting and screaming about it do i?? For all of us who do support the war do you ever hear about it? Does it ever get mentioned? There are a lot of folks voices who never get heard as far as public opinion goes because we're not so vocal but our way of politics is different, we wait until election day and actually go vote in mass numbers because we already know who and what we're gonna vote for, we rally our bases differently. We don't go tell the entire nation "Vote for us as he did this or that" but we respond to those we get energy and feedback fom ourselves, those likely to actually vote for us. Its a completely diffeent system and i'll get into it more in refference to your statement about Democratic deficits.

I certainly don't think polling is a perfect science but it is fairly accurate. There is no question Americans supported the war at its inception, and i think it is fair to say those numbers have dropped considerably over the last for years.

In the other countries the feelings against the war from the get-go were quite apparent. At no other time in history did so many people worldwide at one time protest a thing as much as they protested the Iraq invasion. Certainly that is reflective of the opinion of a significant amount of people...

In Spain and Italy specifically their leaders brought them to war in total defiance of their peoples wishes. That is the democratic deficit. The people wanted one thing, and the elected leaders did the opposite.

Andrew

[Zpxbawtz]

I think you seriously do need some drugs, ever thought of ridilin or something to help with ADHD?

Got anymore "He put the Dick in Dick Cheney" jokes for us then?

Watching paint dry is funnier than reading the utter garbage ass trash you come out with.

I do have some more Dick jokes for you. I can't remember where I heard this one, but:

"I'm surprised Dick Cheney loves to hunt so much. The five times the government tried to give him a gun, he got a deferment."

Bad-dum-bum----ching!

[corolaelwis]

Actually, as a function of pure numbers of people globally, the world has been moving closer to socialism. (defined as affordable education, health care, and social assistance, etc..) There is only one country on the planet where the trend is opposite, the USA. And according to polls, this is the opposite of what people want.

Hmm i dunno, Germany and Britain's population is about 80 and 60 million respectivelty. France itself has about 60 million people and Canada about 30 million or so right? Now for those with conservative ad or soon to be conservative governments i think there has been a respresentative shift of people's views towads the right, Australia has another 20 million people and so many Eastern European nations that have taken so much to Free market captalism and toward conerative policy, the new Polish PM makes Bush look a liberal. In South America we have seen a shft back to te left but then agin bear in mind that America and Mexico's population alone (add in Canada and you have half a billion folk) matches South America alone. I think more and more folk like in France want to get away from the socalist system they have, and this is uder a right wing government, not left like Lepen would have wanted. I think maybe also the fact that one man's conservatism equals another's liberalism is also an issue, centreright government's i France wouldn't even get elected in Canada leave alone the U.S. I think this boils own to something else too which is that more and more liberals tend to be more vocal than conservatives but its generally conservatives that end up on top in the end. Remember how much of a hissy fit the idiotic leftist candidate in Mexico through after losing to Caledron? He basically modelled himself after Gore i think and he got his idea to appeal the election results from him too, but have you ever seen a conservative do that? Like with Bush in 2000 did you see us ranting and raving all the time? See we were on top on both outcomes right from the start, and we just normally, camly, rationally took our cases to the voters and basically explained what the situation was, on the other side though we sill have the same thing about the 2000 election being aired today, some foam in mouth liberals still think that Gore won. However take the loss for George Allen to Jim Webb last year, the vote tally was within the margin of error but did you see Allen appeal it and take battle after battle through the courts? See we usually know that we have he upper hand and therefore its the left that always protest us, do you think those of us who wanna have Iran attacked go out and protest the fact our government won't drop nuclear weapons on Iranian cities? Apart from the on issue of abortion how often do you see conservatives gong out full speed with posers and banners saying that this or that is wrong? Basically looking at it from a global view there are many more to the right than left IMO and many more who would see themselves as conervative than liberal by their own definiton and in relevance to their own cultures and beliefs.

[Zpxbawtz]

the world is moving further and further towards fascism.

Fixed.

[corolaelwis]

I'm glad me and Andrew can at least have a serious discussion inbetween all your crap, you go ahead and post whatever you want, keep talking to yourself.