Ray Nagin - contempt motion - DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate

**gernica** · 02-18-2007, 02:03 AM

I saw this lawsuit issued by the Second Amendment Foundation -- a victory for the Second Amendment!

SAF VICTORY IN NEW ORLEANS, JUDGE GRANTS CONTEMPT MOTION

BELLEVUE, WA – A United States District Judge in New Orleans has granted a motion to hold Mayor C. Ray Nagin and Police Superintendent Warren Riley in contempt for failure to provide initial disclosures and answers to discovery in a lawsuit filed by the Second Amendment Foundation.

Judge Carl J. Barbier issued a blistering rebuke to New Orleans’ defense counsel for conduct that is “wholly unprofessional” and warned that it “shall not be condoned.” Judge Barbier ordered defense counsel to reimburse SAF’s attorney $1,365. SAF is joined in the lawsuit by the National Rifle Association.

SAF Press Release :: SAF VICTORY IN NEW ORLEANS, JUDGE GRANTS CONTEMPT MOTION Looks like whoever authorized the order to illegally seize weapons from residents of New Orleans is going down! Truly a victory.

**HarryMet** · 02-20-2007, 10:23 PM

In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, instead of pursuing criminals who had broken the law, New Orleans police went door to door, seizing legal firearms from law-abiding citizens. The firearms still haven't been returned, and now officials say they're not sure where they all are.

A lawsuit was filed to force theri return. The city has repeatedly failed to provide required documentation and information. Sounds like the judge has had enough.

Many gun owners see the case as a landmark to test the idea that law-abiding citizens' right or keep and bear arms cannot be taken away just because some official thinks there's a good reason.

------------------------------

NOLA.com: Search

Judge cites Nagin, Riley
City missed deadlines in gun-rights lawsuit

Feb. 15, 2007

A federal judge has held New Orleans' mayor and police chief in contempt of court because a city lawyer repeatedly ignored deadlines for answering questions from two gun-rights groups that succeeded in stopping police from seizing guns from law-abiding citizens after Hurricane Katrina.

In a written order Monday, U.S. District Judge Carl Barbier rebuked Assistant City Attorney Joseph DiRosa for "wholly unprofessional conduct" that "shall not be condoned" for his repeated failure to hand over information in a lawsuit seeking a permanent order blocking such gun seizures. Barbier, scheduled in June to try the case filed by the National Rifle Association and Second Amendment Foundation against the city, said DiRosa admitted he had "no good reason" for failing to respond on time to information requests from the plaintiffs.

DiRosa said he has now handed over the information to the plaintiffs, but that did nothing to mollify Barbier. He said DiRosa had caused the plaintiffs to waste time and money, and ordered the city to pay $1,365 to cover what it cost a Second Amendment Foundation attorney to draw up the contempt-of-court paperwork. Mayor Ray Nagin and Police Superintendent Warren Riley, named as the defendants in the suit, were not personally penalized by the judge.

Meanwhile, Second Amendment Foundation founder Alan M. Gottlieb denied that DiRosa has handed over anything sought by his organization and the NRA.

The Times-Picayune tried unsuccessfully Tuesday to reach DiRosa for comment on the case or Barbiers' order.

That order signals Barbier's patience in the face of stonewalling by the city "has grown as thin as our own,' " Gottlieb said.

The city's lawyers, he said, "seemed to have forgotten that the case involves serious constitutional violations -- namely, the city's move to send police officers and Louisiana National Guard members out in Katrina's aftermath to confiscate weapons from citizens, in many cases, at gunpoint, without a warrant and without probable cause."

"Nagin and Riley and every other official in New Orleans who was part of this outrage need to understand that the Constitution may not be suspended in New Orleans or anywhere else by a natural disaster or on somebody's whim," he said.

Gottlieb called the contempt- of-court ruling "the first step toward forcing New Orleans to return seized firearms to their rightful owners and in our effort to find out who issued that illegal order and hold them responsible."

According to Gottlieb, the city has reneged on promises made last year to cooperate with pretrial discovery requests, including offering people who have no proof they own a particular gun to get it back after describing it and passing a background check.

Gottlieb said it's his understanding that only about 100 of the estimated 1,000 guns seized after Katrina have been returned to their owners even though many of the weapons were tagged with information about where they were taken or who owned them.

The gun rights groups have not been given a chance to examine the inventory of seized weapons, Gottlieb said. It's his understanding that the weapons are being stored in a shipping container into which water is leaking, he said.

"We're not sure that all the guns that were confiscated are actually sitting in this container," he said.

**egoldhyip** · 02-20-2007, 10:36 PM

And the Blacks re-elected him!!! Why not Recall governor Blanco too? Like California re-called governor gray davis.

**Biassasecumma** · 02-20-2007, 10:42 PM

Wow - I never heard this happened.
This is a direct violation of each citizens rights...exponentially they violated the constitution 1000 times, and ignoring a Federal Judge.

I whole heartedly believe he should be severely reprimanded...funny how he took action in violating peoples rights - but took no action to save their lives.

**HarryMet** · 02-20-2007, 10:52 PM

If I went into your house, held you up at gunpoint, and took whatever firearms you had, I'd be in jail by now.

Why isn't he?

**gernica** · 02-20-2007, 11:57 PM

I had already started a thread on this subject here. Admins, can you please merge the threads?

**MasdMnPa** · 02-21-2007, 10:43 AM

Threads merged

**rsdefwgxvcfdts** · 02-21-2007, 11:06 AM

I did not know that Nagin had done this until now. The Second Ammendment violation is wrong but the flagrant violation of the Fourth Ammendment is frightening to me. At a time when our country is pretty touchy about those Fourth Ammendment rights, why hasn't this issue been forefront in the news along with what we hear about monitoring communications?

**rsdefwgxvcfdts** · 02-21-2007, 11:11 AM

Wow, I'm going to read up on this more. The more I think about it, the Second Amendment violation is just as frightening. The N.O. situation is an excellent example of the original spirit in which was present when the Second Amendment was first drafted.

**Heliosprime** · 02-21-2007, 01:01 PM

I did not know that Nagin had done this until now. The Second Ammendment violation is wrong but the flagrant violation of the Fourth Ammendment is frightening to me. At a time when our country is pretty touchy about those Fourth Ammendment rights, why hasn't this issue been forefront in the news along with what we hear about monitoring communications?

because he has the magical PC protection....

**YpbWF5Yo** · 02-21-2007, 01:09 PM

In the midst of all the horror that was Hurricane Katrina .. and the failure of the government to act quickly to save lives .. here we are talking about guns being removed from homes and how Nagin was a monster for doing so.

Incredible.

**MasdMnPa** · 02-21-2007, 01:17 PM

In the midst of all the horror that was Hurricane Katrina .. and the failure of the government to act quickly to save lives .. here we are talking about guns being removed from homes and how Nagin was a monster for doing so.

Incredible.

We're taking about a government taking it upon itself to set aside the Constitution. Can you think of a more serious topic?

Regardless of how you feel about guns, look at what was done to the 4th Amendment here. Armed agents of the government entered the homes of law abiding citizens without warrant and conducted searches. Even over the direct objections of the homeowners.

Matt

**YpbWF5Yo** · 02-21-2007, 01:30 PM

We're taking about a government taking it upon itself to set aside the Constitution. Can you think of a more serious topic?

Regardless of how you feel about guns, look at what was done to the 4th Amendment here. Armed agents of the government entered the homes of law abiding citizens without warrant and conducted searches. Even over the direct objections of the homeowners.

Matt

Emphasis mine.

Yes I can my brother.

Saving lives .. and the failure of the wider government to do so.

Don't know how you feel about guns, but they pale in comparison to the lives of innocent and helpless people, including many children.

**MasdMnPa** · 02-21-2007, 01:37 PM

Emphasis mine.

Yes I can my brother.

Saving lives .. and the failure of the wider government to do so.

Don't know how you feel about guns, but they pale in comparison to the lives of innocent and helpless people, including many children.

Most of these unconstitutional searches and seizures took place after the initial rescue phase. But for those that didn't, perhaps you should be upset that Nagin had these officers out conducting unlawful searches rather than making rescues?

Matt

**Biassasecumma** · 02-21-2007, 01:38 PM

We're taking about a government taking it upon itself to set aside the Constitution. Can you think of a more serious topic?

Regardless of how you feel about guns, look at what was done to the 4th Amendment here. Armed agents of the government entered the homes of law abiding citizens without warrant and conducted searches. Even over the direct objections of the homeowners.

Matt

Precisely.

If anyone applies any thought to this beyond their personal feelings for gun control - this is a VERY serious violation...EXACTLY what these amendments are there to prevent.

On a side note - the Media is VERY irresponsible for not headlining this issue - I am amazed that we are just now hearing about it...give us 20 freaking stories a day about Anna friggin Nicole and leave out what could be the single largest constitutional violation in recent history (oh God, that invites Bush bashers)

**YpbWF5Yo** · 02-21-2007, 01:53 PM

Most of these unconstitutional searches and seizures took place after the initial rescue phase. But for those that didn't, perhaps you should be upset that Nagin had these officers out conducting unlawful searches rather than making rescues?

Matt

There are a lot of reasons to be upset with Nagin, but removing guns from homes isn't one of them. This is an issue for the gun-lovers, plan and simple, and not an issue for human-lovers.

I was part of an organized effort to bring food and clothes to New Orleans after the tragedy .. and after what I witnessed, this angst about guns seems really really silly to me .. but don't mind me .. I'm a human-lover.

**MasdMnPa** · 02-21-2007, 02:08 PM

There are a lot of reasons to be upset with Nagin, but removing guns from homes isn't one of them. This is an issue for the gun-lovers, plan and simple, and not an issue for human-lovers.

I was part of an organized effort to bring food and clothes to New Orleans after the tragedy .. and after what I witnessed, this angst about guns seems really really silly to me .. but don't mind me .. I'm a human-lover.

You're fixated on the guns, and ignoring the very human-lover relevant issue of unconstitutional search and seizure.

Or, to put it differently, I am a freedom-lover. When I see the government trampling over the freedoms we are guaranteed in the Constitution, it pisses me off.

Matt

**Biassasecumma** · 02-21-2007, 02:18 PM

There are a lot of reasons to be upset with Nagin, but removing guns from homes isn't one of them. This is an issue for the gun-lovers, plan and simple, and not an issue for human-lovers.

I was part of an organized effort to bring food and clothes to New Orleans after the tragedy .. and after what I witnessed, this angst about guns seems really really silly to me .. but don't mind me .. I'm a human-lover.

It is unfortunate you can't get beyond your personal issues with gun control...the fact that it was guns taken away is only slightly relevant...it is the fact that this is a direct violation of search and seizure that should upset everyone, regardless of feelings toward gun control.

Guns is not the issue.

**YpbWF5Yo** · 02-21-2007, 02:36 PM

Matt, iamwhatiseem,

I agree with you both. Guns is not the issue.

Human life is the issue and that trumps even the Constitution.

Forgive me if I take this issue too personally. I went to NO after the tragedy. I looked into the faces of the victims and I heard their stories. I looked into the face of a 14 year-old boy who couldn't find his parents. I talked to a minister who was overwhelmed by people seeking his help and watched him start to cry as he spoke of his shame that he couldn't do more for them. I watched a woman who had lost her baby and the blank stare on her face has been blazed into my memory for the rest of my life.

Personally, I'm shocked at the apathy of the American people for their own fellow citizens in this so-called "god-fearing" land. Can't tell me shit about God and believers. Those who took up the mantle of responsibility for their fellow citizens were spiritual, not religious, not gun-lovers .. and it is in they who I place my faith in Americans.

If you both believe that Nagin's act was an affront to the Constitution and "freedom" .. then more power to you my brothers.

**Ztcgtqvb** · 02-21-2007, 02:51 PM

Personally, I'm shocked at the apathy of the American people for their own fellow citizens in this so-called "god-fearing" land. Can't tell me shit about God and believers. Those who took up the mantle of responsibility for their fellow citizens were spiritual, not religious, not gun-lovers .. and it is in they who I place my faith in Americans.

If you both believe that Nagin's act was an affront to the Constitution and "freedom" .. then more power to you my brothers.

You're so full of sh*t bashing churches like that. Are you aware that the churches provided more for those people than any other organization or movement? Of course not; you're so keen on christian bashing you'll ignore completely valid facts for your hate filled rhetoric. My brother dropped everything and went down there to help them rebuild, he frames, roofs, tiles, and he couldn't find work because of the all the local govn beuracracy, which is run completely by liberal democrats. Those people are in the state their in because of who they elected.

Varus

02-18-2007, 02:03 AM	#1
gernica Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 575 Senior Member	Ray Nagin - contempt motion I saw this lawsuit issued by the Second Amendment Foundation -- a victory for the Second Amendment! SAF VICTORY IN NEW ORLEANS, JUDGE GRANTS CONTEMPT MOTION BELLEVUE, WA – A United States District Judge in New Orleans has granted a motion to hold Mayor C. Ray Nagin and Police Superintendent Warren Riley in contempt for failure to provide initial disclosures and answers to discovery in a lawsuit filed by the Second Amendment Foundation. Judge Carl J. Barbier issued a blistering rebuke to New Orleans’ defense counsel for conduct that is “wholly unprofessional” and warned that it “shall not be condoned.” Judge Barbier ordered defense counsel to reimburse SAF’s attorney $1,365. SAF is joined in the lawsuit by the National Rifle Association. SAF Press Release :: SAF VICTORY IN NEW ORLEANS, JUDGE GRANTS CONTEMPT MOTION Looks like whoever authorized the order to illegally seize weapons from residents of New Orleans is going down! Truly a victory. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-20-2007, 10:23 PM	#2
HarryMet Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 380 Senior Member	In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, instead of pursuing criminals who had broken the law, New Orleans police went door to door, seizing legal firearms from law-abiding citizens. The firearms still haven't been returned, and now officials say they're not sure where they all are. A lawsuit was filed to force theri return. The city has repeatedly failed to provide required documentation and information. Sounds like the judge has had enough. Many gun owners see the case as a landmark to test the idea that law-abiding citizens' right or keep and bear arms cannot be taken away just because some official thinks there's a good reason. ------------------------------ NOLA.com: Search Judge cites Nagin, Riley City missed deadlines in gun-rights lawsuit Feb. 15, 2007 A federal judge has held New Orleans' mayor and police chief in contempt of court because a city lawyer repeatedly ignored deadlines for answering questions from two gun-rights groups that succeeded in stopping police from seizing guns from law-abiding citizens after Hurricane Katrina. In a written order Monday, U.S. District Judge Carl Barbier rebuked Assistant City Attorney Joseph DiRosa for "wholly unprofessional conduct" that "shall not be condoned" for his repeated failure to hand over information in a lawsuit seeking a permanent order blocking such gun seizures. Barbier, scheduled in June to try the case filed by the National Rifle Association and Second Amendment Foundation against the city, said DiRosa admitted he had "no good reason" for failing to respond on time to information requests from the plaintiffs. DiRosa said he has now handed over the information to the plaintiffs, but that did nothing to mollify Barbier. He said DiRosa had caused the plaintiffs to waste time and money, and ordered the city to pay $1,365 to cover what it cost a Second Amendment Foundation attorney to draw up the contempt-of-court paperwork. Mayor Ray Nagin and Police Superintendent Warren Riley, named as the defendants in the suit, were not personally penalized by the judge. Meanwhile, Second Amendment Foundation founder Alan M. Gottlieb denied that DiRosa has handed over anything sought by his organization and the NRA. The Times-Picayune tried unsuccessfully Tuesday to reach DiRosa for comment on the case or Barbiers' order. That order signals Barbier's patience in the face of stonewalling by the city "has grown as thin as our own,' " Gottlieb said. The city's lawyers, he said, "seemed to have forgotten that the case involves serious constitutional violations -- namely, the city's move to send police officers and Louisiana National Guard members out in Katrina's aftermath to confiscate weapons from citizens, in many cases, at gunpoint, without a warrant and without probable cause." "Nagin and Riley and every other official in New Orleans who was part of this outrage need to understand that the Constitution may not be suspended in New Orleans or anywhere else by a natural disaster or on somebody's whim," he said. Gottlieb called the contempt- of-court ruling "the first step toward forcing New Orleans to return seized firearms to their rightful owners and in our effort to find out who issued that illegal order and hold them responsible." According to Gottlieb, the city has reneged on promises made last year to cooperate with pretrial discovery requests, including offering people who have no proof they own a particular gun to get it back after describing it and passing a background check. Gottlieb said it's his understanding that only about 100 of the estimated 1,000 guns seized after Katrina have been returned to their owners even though many of the weapons were tagged with information about where they were taken or who owned them. The gun rights groups have not been given a chance to examine the inventory of seized weapons, Gottlieb said. It's his understanding that the weapons are being stored in a shipping container into which water is leaking, he said. "We're not sure that all the guns that were confiscated are actually sitting in this container," he said. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-20-2007, 10:36 PM	#3
egoldhyip Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 485 Senior Member	And the Blacks re-elected him!!! Why not Recall governor Blanco too? Like California re-called governor gray davis. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-20-2007, 10:42 PM	#4
Biassasecumma Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 740 Senior Member	Wow - I never heard this happened. This is a direct violation of each citizens rights...exponentially they violated the constitution 1000 times, and ignoring a Federal Judge. I whole heartedly believe he should be severely reprimanded...funny how he took action in violating peoples rights - but took no action to save their lives. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-20-2007, 10:52 PM	#5
HarryMet Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 380 Senior Member	If I went into your house, held you up at gunpoint, and took whatever firearms you had, I'd be in jail by now. Why isn't he? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-20-2007, 11:57 PM	#6
gernica Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 575 Senior Member	I had already started a thread on this subject here. Admins, can you please merge the threads? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 10:43 AM	#7
MasdMnPa Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 425 Senior Member	Threads merged Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
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02-21-2007, 11:06 AM	#8
rsdefwgxvcfdts Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 539 Senior Member	I did not know that Nagin had done this until now. The Second Ammendment violation is wrong but the flagrant violation of the Fourth Ammendment is frightening to me. At a time when our country is pretty touchy about those Fourth Ammendment rights, why hasn't this issue been forefront in the news along with what we hear about monitoring communications? Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 11:11 AM	#9
rsdefwgxvcfdts Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 539 Senior Member	Wow, I'm going to read up on this more. The more I think about it, the Second Amendment violation is just as frightening. The N.O. situation is an excellent example of the original spirit in which was present when the Second Amendment was first drafted. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 01:01 PM	#10
Heliosprime Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 602 Senior Member	I did not know that Nagin had done this until now. The Second Ammendment violation is wrong but the flagrant violation of the Fourth Ammendment is frightening to me. At a time when our country is pretty touchy about those Fourth Ammendment rights, why hasn't this issue been forefront in the news along with what we hear about monitoring communications? because he has the magical PC protection.... Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 01:09 PM	#11
YpbWF5Yo Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 469 Senior Member	In the midst of all the horror that was Hurricane Katrina .. and the failure of the government to act quickly to save lives .. here we are talking about guns being removed from homes and how Nagin was a monster for doing so. Incredible. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 01:17 PM	#12
MasdMnPa Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 425 Senior Member	In the midst of all the horror that was Hurricane Katrina .. and the failure of the government to act quickly to save lives .. here we are talking about guns being removed from homes and how Nagin was a monster for doing so. Incredible. We're taking about a government taking it upon itself to set aside the Constitution. Can you think of a more serious topic? Regardless of how you feel about guns, look at what was done to the 4th Amendment here. Armed agents of the government entered the homes of law abiding citizens without warrant and conducted searches. Even over the direct objections of the homeowners. Matt Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 01:30 PM	#13
YpbWF5Yo Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 469 Senior Member	We're taking about a government taking it upon itself to set aside the Constitution. Can you think of a more serious topic? Regardless of how you feel about guns, look at what was done to the 4th Amendment here. Armed agents of the government entered the homes of law abiding citizens without warrant and conducted searches. Even over the direct objections of the homeowners. Matt Emphasis mine. Yes I can my brother. Saving lives .. and the failure of the wider government to do so. Don't know how you feel about guns, but they pale in comparison to the lives of innocent and helpless people, including many children. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 01:37 PM	#14
MasdMnPa Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 425 Senior Member	Emphasis mine. Yes I can my brother. Saving lives .. and the failure of the wider government to do so. Don't know how you feel about guns, but they pale in comparison to the lives of innocent and helpless people, including many children. Most of these unconstitutional searches and seizures took place after the initial rescue phase. But for those that didn't, perhaps you should be upset that Nagin had these officers out conducting unlawful searches rather than making rescues? Matt Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 01:38 PM	#15
Biassasecumma Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 740 Senior Member	We're taking about a government taking it upon itself to set aside the Constitution. Can you think of a more serious topic? Regardless of how you feel about guns, look at what was done to the 4th Amendment here. Armed agents of the government entered the homes of law abiding citizens without warrant and conducted searches. Even over the direct objections of the homeowners. Matt Precisely. If anyone applies any thought to this beyond their personal feelings for gun control - this is a VERY serious violation...EXACTLY what these amendments are there to prevent. On a side note - the Media is VERY irresponsible for not headlining this issue - I am amazed that we are just now hearing about it...give us 20 freaking stories a day about Anna friggin Nicole and leave out what could be the single largest constitutional violation in recent history (oh God, that invites Bush bashers) Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

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02-21-2007, 01:53 PM	#16
YpbWF5Yo Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 469 Senior Member	Most of these unconstitutional searches and seizures took place after the initial rescue phase. But for those that didn't, perhaps you should be upset that Nagin had these officers out conducting unlawful searches rather than making rescues? Matt There are a lot of reasons to be upset with Nagin, but removing guns from homes isn't one of them. This is an issue for the gun-lovers, plan and simple, and not an issue for human-lovers. I was part of an organized effort to bring food and clothes to New Orleans after the tragedy .. and after what I witnessed, this angst about guns seems really really silly to me .. but don't mind me .. I'm a human-lover. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 02:08 PM	#17
MasdMnPa Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 425 Senior Member	There are a lot of reasons to be upset with Nagin, but removing guns from homes isn't one of them. This is an issue for the gun-lovers, plan and simple, and not an issue for human-lovers. I was part of an organized effort to bring food and clothes to New Orleans after the tragedy .. and after what I witnessed, this angst about guns seems really really silly to me .. but don't mind me .. I'm a human-lover. You're fixated on the guns, and ignoring the very human-lover relevant issue of unconstitutional search and seizure. Or, to put it differently, I am a freedom-lover. When I see the government trampling over the freedoms we are guaranteed in the Constitution, it pisses me off. Matt Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 02:18 PM	#18
Biassasecumma Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 740 Senior Member	There are a lot of reasons to be upset with Nagin, but removing guns from homes isn't one of them. This is an issue for the gun-lovers, plan and simple, and not an issue for human-lovers. I was part of an organized effort to bring food and clothes to New Orleans after the tragedy .. and after what I witnessed, this angst about guns seems really really silly to me .. but don't mind me .. I'm a human-lover. It is unfortunate you can't get beyond your personal issues with gun control...the fact that it was guns taken away is only slightly relevant...it is the fact that this is a direct violation of search and seizure that should upset everyone, regardless of feelings toward gun control. Guns is not the issue. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 02:36 PM	#19
YpbWF5Yo Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 469 Senior Member	Matt, iamwhatiseem, I agree with you both. Guns is not the issue. Human life is the issue and that trumps even the Constitution. Forgive me if I take this issue too personally. I went to NO after the tragedy. I looked into the faces of the victims and I heard their stories. I looked into the face of a 14 year-old boy who couldn't find his parents. I talked to a minister who was overwhelmed by people seeking his help and watched him start to cry as he spoke of his shame that he couldn't do more for them. I watched a woman who had lost her baby and the blank stare on her face has been blazed into my memory for the rest of my life. Personally, I'm shocked at the apathy of the American people for their own fellow citizens in this so-called "god-fearing" land. Can't tell me shit about God and believers. Those who took up the mantle of responsibility for their fellow citizens were spiritual, not religious, not gun-lovers .. and it is in they who I place my faith in Americans. If you both believe that Nagin's act was an affront to the Constitution and "freedom" .. then more power to you my brothers. Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote

02-21-2007, 02:51 PM	#20
Ztcgtqvb Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 528 Senior Member	Personally, I'm shocked at the apathy of the American people for their own fellow citizens in this so-called "god-fearing" land. Can't tell me shit about God and believers. Those who took up the mantle of responsibility for their fellow citizens were spiritual, not religious, not gun-lovers .. and it is in they who I place my faith in Americans. If you both believe that Nagin's act was an affront to the Constitution and "freedom" .. then more power to you my brothers. You're so full of sh*t bashing churches like that. Are you aware that the churches provided more for those people than any other organization or movement? Of course not; you're so keen on christian bashing you'll ignore completely valid facts for your hate filled rhetoric. My brother dropped everything and went down there to help them rebuild, he frames, roofs, tiles, and he couldn't find work because of the all the local govn beuracracy, which is run completely by liberal democrats. Those people are in the state their in because of who they elected. Varus Share Share this post on Digg Del.icio.us Technorati Twitter
	Quote