[dittygari]

It is unfortunate you can't get beyond your personal issues with gun control...the fact that it was guns taken away is only slightly relevant...it is the fact that this is a direct violation of search and seizure that should upset everyone, regardless of feelings toward gun control.

Guns is not the issue.

Well stated.

[MasdMnPa]

Matt, iamwhatiseem,

I agree with you both. Guns is not the issue.

Human life is the issue and that trumps even the Constitution.

Then shouldn't you be upset that Nagin decided trampling the 4th amendment was more important than human lives? Why weren't the police out saving people instead of kicking in doors and taking things from people without warrants?

Forgive me if I take this issue too personally. I went to NO after the tragedy. I looked into the faces of the victims and I heard their stories. I looked into the face of a 14 year-old boy who couldn't find his parents. I talked to a minister who was overwhelmed by people seeking his help and watched him start to cry as he spoke of his shame that he couldn't do more for them. I watched a woman who had lost her baby and the blank stare on her face has been blazed into my memory for the rest of my life.

I was a paramedic for over 15 years. People from my department went to NO. Had I not been out of service medically, I'd have been there.

Personally, I'm shocked at the apathy of the American people for their own fellow citizens in this so-called "god-fearing" land. Can't tell me shit about God and believers. Those who took up the mantle of responsibility for their fellow citizens were spiritual, not religious, not gun-lovers .. and it is in they who I place my faith in Americans.

Millions of Americans donated money to help. Many went there to help.

Pissing on their efforts does no service to the people of NO.

If you both believe that Nagin's act was an affront to the Constitution and "freedom" .. then more power to you my brothers.

Again, even if you don't care about the Constitutional violations, surely the manpower could have been better used actually helping people?

Nagin was a colossal failure before, during and after the storm.

Matt

[YpbWF5Yo]

You're so full of sh*t bashing churches like that. Are you aware that the churches provided more for those people than any other organization or movement? Of course not; you're so keen on christian bashing you'll ignore completely valid facts for your hate filled rhetoric. My brother dropped everything and went down there to help them rebuild, he frames, roofs, tiles, and he couldn't find work because of the all the local govn beuracracy, which is run completely by liberal democrats. Those people are in the state their in because of who they elected.

Varus

In case you haven't noticed .. I don't give a damn about what you think. Your state of denial is humorous and sad, nothing more.

I was there working with churches, mosques, grassroots and political groups, and people who just felt moved to do something. But in this land of oppulence, a hell of a lot more could have, and should have been done.

America is in the state we are in because of who was (s)elected to lead it.

Kudos to your brother, screw you.

[Ztcgtqvb]

In case you haven't noticed .. I don't give a damn about what you think. Your state of denial is humorous and sad, nothing more.

I was there working with churches, mosques, grassroots and political groups, and people who just felt moved to do something. But in this land of oppulence, a hell of a lot more could have, and should have been done.

Had those people made responsible decisions they wouldn't have been in the situation they were in. New Orleans is a liberal created welfare state that crumbled when disaster struck. But you go right on ahead and blame everyone except the people who put themselves in that position. You remind me of the kind of person who refuses to purchase flood insurance then when a flood hits you look to the govn for help and b*tch if it doesn't come fast enough; it really is pathetic.

Varus

[YpbWF5Yo]

Then shouldn't you be upset that Nagin decided trampling the 4th amendment was more important than human lives? Why weren't the police out saving people instead of kicking in doors and taking things from people without warrants?

Many of the police officers, those that were left, did an outstanding job under tremendous duress. I agree that all available officers should have been concentrating on saving lives, but there were far more .. make that FAR MORE, responsible acts that should have been taken than just what some of the officers should have been doing. If you're upset with Nagin's government because of this supposed affroint to the Constitution, shouldn't you be far more upset with the federal government for what it did not do or provide? Your priorities are confusing.

I was a paramedic for over 15 years. People from my department went to NO. Had I not been out of service medically, I'd have been there. I do not doubt that you would have been there and I applaud your department for their efforts. But this is America and we are capable of a hell of a lot more than what was done during Katrina .. which will become one of America's darkest hours. In fact, it already is.

Millions of Americans donated money to help. Many went there to help.

Pissing on their efforts does no service to the people of NO. Let us conduct this conversation like adults my brother. None of my comments "pissed on the efforts" of those who rose to the challenge. My comments state that far more could have and should have been done .. which I think is hardly debatable.

Again, even if you don't care about the Constitutional violations, surely the manpower could have been better used actually helping people? Again, I agree.

Nagin was a colossal failure before, during and after the storm. I also agree with much of that .. however, the exact same thing can be said of Bush and his handling of the federal government AND his appointment of a horse broker to head FEMA. Shouldn't you also be talking about the failure of the federal government if you're concerned about the lives of the people of NO?

Does the sentiment of the people of NO count?

Was Nagin responsible for the image of America that was put on the world stage?

Was Nagin responsible for the actions of FEMA?

With the spate of crime and GUN violence that plauges NO today, I hardly see how less guns are the problem.

A large number of people who fled NO after Katrina landed here in the Atlanta area. You should hear their stories.

[YpbWF5Yo]

Had those people made responsible decisions they wouldn't have been in the situation they were in. New Orleans is a liberal created welfare state that crumbled when disaster struck. But you go right on ahead and blame everyone except the people who put themselves in that position. You remind me of the kind of person who refuses to purchase flood insurance then when a flood hits you look to the govn for help and b*tch if it doesn't come fast enough; it really is pathetic.

Varus

And you go ahead and wallow in your confusion and dellusion. Given your right-wing tendecies .. it's about all you have left.

[MasdMnPa]

I also agree with much of that .. however, the exact same thing can be said of Bush and his handling of the federal government AND his appointment of a horse broker to head FEMA. Shouldn't you also be talking about the failure of the federal government if you're concerned about the lives of the people of NO?

Oh, yeah, the response to Katrina was a steaming pile of failure from the local government up to the white house. The only leader who really seemed to have it together was Lt. Gen. Russel Honore. That guy had it wired tight, went in and got the job done.

Does the sentiment of the people of NO count?

Was Nagin responsible for the image of America that was put on the world stage?

Nagin bears a part of that responsibility, yes. He played a significant - but not sole - role in the totally inept response to Katrina. His failure to follow the state disaster plan played a role in the lives that were lost.

Was Nagin responsible for the actions of FEMA?

No, but it is worthy of note that up until Katrina, the understanding was that the state and local authorities were responsible for the first 48-72 hours post-disaster, and that FEMA would show up around the 72 hour mark with loads of toys and manpower.

FEMA definitely failed in their responsibility, but the local and state responses didn't exactly make the earth move either.

With the spate of crime and GUN violence that plauges NO today, I hardly see how less guns are the problem.

Again, stop focusing on the gun and look at the bigger picture. The Constitutional right to be free of unreasonable search and seizure was utterly raped. People were subjected - sometimes forcibly - to searches of their homes without a search warrant, and without probable cause.

Matt

[Biassasecumma]

Matt, iamwhatiseem,

I agree with you both. Guns is not the issue.

Human life is the issue and that trumps even the Constitution.

Forgive me if I take this issue too personally. I went to NO after the tragedy. I looked into the faces of the victims and I heard their stories. I looked into the face of a 14 year-old boy who couldn't find his parents. I talked to a minister who was overwhelmed by people seeking his help and watched him start to cry as he spoke of his shame that he couldn't do more for them. I watched a woman who had lost her baby and the blank stare on her face has been blazed into my memory for the rest of my life.

Personally, I'm shocked at the apathy of the American people for their own fellow citizens in this so-called "god-fearing" land. Can't tell me shit about God and believers. Those who took up the mantle of responsibility for their fellow citizens were spiritual, not religious, not gun-lovers .. and it is in they who I place my faith in Americans.

If you both believe that Nagin's act was an affront to the Constitution and "freedom" .. then more power to you my brothers.

Then you should be upset that Nagin had the time and wherewithal to carry this out - but was impotent in protecting lives and saving lives (remember the 1000's of city buses that were under water???)

The N.O. humanitarian disaster is not an example of citizen apathy...what we all saw was large sections of a major city destroyed in a few minutes...and all levels of government not prepared to deal with it, and Nagin and the media blaming the Feds - when they were at the very least equally responsible (more I believe).

[YpbWF5Yo]

Matt,

I don't disagree with much of what you said in your last post. Katrina was a monumental failure of all levels of the US government, local, state, and federal.

My problem is the failure to respond adequately to this tragic human crisis far surpasses any affront to the search and seizure that may have taken place.

Additonally, those most bothered by the search and seizure greivance are the exact same people who had no problem with illegal wire-tapping and all of the other attacks on the Constitution and civil liberties that the Bush Administration engaged in.

Did you defend any of the actions of the Bush Administration to illegally attack the Constitution and the rights of Americans .. many of which have been struck down by the courts over these past 6 years? If the rights of American citizens and the Constitution is your argument, then surely you've had problems with what's happening on the federal level and your angst over these attacks does not stop in New Orleans.

Perhaps you have not defended these attacks by the Bush Administration, but it is strangely curious to me that Nagin is criticized for the same thing that is happening on a much wider and far more dangerous federal level .. by the same people who defended those actions.

[MasdMnPa]

Matt,

I don't disagree with much of what you said in your last post. Katrina was a monumental failure of all levels of the US government, local, state, and federal.

My problem is the failure to respond adequately to this tragic human crisis far surpasses any affront to the search and seizure that may have taken place.

The response to people in need takes priority over the Constitutional trampling, for the time that those people are in need.

The fact that people needed help does not forgive or excuse the government of New Orleans trampling the constitution. The fact that the trampling occurred in place of helping people in need of rescue just makes it worse.

Additonally, those most bothered by the search and seizure greivance are the exact same people who had no problem with illegal wire-tapping and all of the other attacks on the Constitution and civil liberties that the Bush Administration engaged in.

Conversely, some of the loudest voices speaking out against warrantless wire-taps are silent on these warrantless physical searches.

Did you defend any of the actions of the Bush Administration to illegally attack the Constitution and the rights of Americans .. many of which have been struck down by the courts over these past 6 years? If the rights of American citizens and the Constitution is your argument, then surely you've had problems with what's happening on the federal level and your angst over these attacks does not stop in New Orleans.

I am on record opposing the wiretapping program. What I don't understand is how you can (rightly) condemn the warrantless wiretaps, and yet excuse warrantless - and sometimes violent - physical searches of people's homes against their will?

Perhaps you have not defended these attacks by the Bush Administration, but it is strangely curious to me that Nagin is criticized for the same thing that is happening on a much wider and far more dangerous federal level .. by the same people who defended those actions.

Strangely curious to me is how Nagin is excused for doing the same thing Bush is doing - using the 4th Amendment or toilet paper.

Matt

[Biassasecumma]

Matt,

I don't disagree with much of what you said in your last post. Katrina was a monumental failure of all levels of the US government, local, state, and federal.

My problem is the failure to respond adequately to this tragic human crisis far surpasses any affront to the search and seizure that may have taken place.

Additonally, those most bothered by the search and seizure greivance are the exact same people who had no problem with illegal wire-tapping and all of the other attacks on the Constitution and civil liberties that the Bush Administration engaged in.

Did you defend any of the actions of the Bush Administration to illegally attack the Constitution and the rights of Americans .. many of which have been struck down by the courts over these past 6 years? If the rights of American citizens and the Constitution is your argument, then surely you've had problems with what's happening on the federal level and your angst over these attacks does not stop in New Orleans.

Perhaps you have not defended these attacks by the Bush Administration, but it is strangely curious to me that Nagin is criticized for the same thing that is happening on a much wider and far more dangerous federal level .. by the same people who defended those actions.

Black - we have enough "one topic" posters here already, trying to point a finger to a favorite target on almost any subject, and you will lose all credibility as a poster quick.
Not saying you do this...just saying I hope you don't start...even if you were correct (which is another topic altogether) two wrongs don't make a right.

[YpbWF5Yo]

Then you should be upset that Nagin had the time and wherewithal to carry this out - but was impotent in protecting lives and saving lives (remember the 1000's of city buses that were under water???)

The N.O. humanitarian disaster is not an example of citizen apathy...what we all saw was large sections of a major city destroyed in a few minutes...and all levels of government not prepared to deal with it, and Nagin and the media blaming the Feds - when they were at the very least equally responsible (more I believe).

I disagree.

There was nothing "surprising" about Katrina. Hurricanes don't sneak up on you. The problem of the levees has been known and documented for at least 40 years. Instead of fortifying the levees, installing new pumps, and fortifying the breaks, they did nothing.

The city was not equipped to handle a catastophe of that magnitude. 95% of the oil that flowed from the Gulf of Mexico was interrupted. The US is the most technogically advanced nation in the world and to suggest that a local government was more responsible for the disaster is far from the truth.

Less advanced nations of the world offered to help, like Cuba, Venezula, China, Russia, Iran, and Holland .. all of which was denied.

I'm at a loss trying to determine how you figure a local government was more responsible for a disaster that affected the entire nation.

[MasdMnPa]

I'm at a loss trying to determine how you figure a local government was more responsible for a disaster that affected the entire nation.

At the time Katrina happened, it was very well known in the emergency management community that FEMA would not be there to do anything for 48-72 hours (or more). The local and state agencies were expected to handle things themselves for that initial timeframe.

That was the standard operational plan since I first started in public safety in the late 80s.

In Katrina, the state and local resources were completely overwhelmed in the initial hours, and the system collapsed.

FEMA, when they finally showed up, didn't accomplish much of anything either.

Matt

[YpbWF5Yo]

Black - we have enough "one topic" posters here already, trying to point a finger to a favorite target on almost any subject, and you will lose all credibility as a poster quick.
Not saying you do this...just saying I hope you don't start...even if you were correct (which is another topic altogether) two wrongs don't make a right.

I appreciate your analysis my brother .. but I come here to express my thoughts about America and the course we are on. If you've noticed, I criticize the democrats as much as I criticize republicans.

That being said, the major responsibility for where we are today belongs with the person sitting in the White House and those who have supported his braindead policies.

In my opinion, America is way past due to take a long look in the mirror. Our policies and priorities, foreign and domestic, needs serious introspective. I also understand that far too many Americans do not welcome looking in the mirror, so I have no illusions about being popular.

The good news is that there are quite a few .. and growing .. number of Americans, here on this site, and throughout this nation who believe as I do. I like it here.

It is my opinion that it is time that we grow up as a nation and divest ourselves of Hollywood notions of what America is supposed to be about.

As I've said before, Thomas Jefferson would be considered "unamerican" and "unpatriotic" by many today .. some of them are right here on this site. I am unmoved by popularity or what someone thinks of what I have to say. I support everything I say with facts, documentation, and common sense.

I'm open to listening to any perspective .. other than America is always right and criticism of my own coutry is unamerican.

Appreciate your thoughts.

[YpbWF5Yo]

At the time Katrina happened, it was very well known in the emergency management community that FEMA would not be there to do anything for 48-72 hours (or more). The local and state agencies were expected to handle things themselves for that initial timeframe.

That was the standard operational plan since I first started in public safety in the late 80s.

In Katrina, the state and local resources were completely overwhelmed in the initial hours, and the system collapsed.

FEMA, when they finally showed up, didn't accomplish much of anything either.

Matt

I agree with everything you said here.

[Biassasecumma]

I disagree.

There was nothing "surprising" about Katrina. Hurricanes don't sneak up on you. The problem of the levees has been known and documented for at least 40 years. Instead of fortifying the levees, installing new pumps, and fortifying the breaks, they did nothing.

The city was not equipped to handle a catastophe of that magnitude. 95% of the oil that flowed from the Gulf of Mexico was interrupted. The US is the most technogically advanced nation in the world and to suggest that a local government was more responsible for the disaster is far from the truth.

Less advanced nations of the world offered to help, like Cuba, Venezula, China, Russia, Iran, and Holland .. all of which was denied.

I'm at a loss trying to determine how you figure a local government was more responsible for a disaster that affected the entire nation.

I am referring to the specific disaster response - not the disaster itself or the prevention thereof. We all agree (embarrassingly) that several European nations have levees that made the N.O. levees look like it was designed by a 6th grader...in special education.

I hold Nagin more responsible than any other individual for his part in one of the most screwed up events in our nations history. There are so many, many things that did not happen in the first day that is inexcusable and borderline criminal neglect. Just the fact that 1000's of city busses were not utilized is unimaginable.

[YpbWF5Yo]

I am referring to the specific disaster response - not the disaster itself or the prevention thereof. We all agree (embarrassingly) that several European nations have levees that made the N.O. levees look like it was designed by a 6th grader...in special education.

I hold Nagin more responsible than any other individual for his part in one of the most screwed up events in our nations history. There are so many, many things that did not happen in the first day that is inexcusable and borderline criminal neglect. Just the fact that 1000's of city busses were not utilized is unimaginable.

Can't argue with much of that my brother, except holding Nagin more responsible than anyone else.

Don't get it twisted .. I am no fan of Nagin. His ass should have been tossed out of office quickly .. but I also understand the dynamic that put him back in office and the reluctance of black residents of NO to trust anyone other than themselves.

Even given that the initial hours were the fault of not only the local government, but also the state government, what about the chaos that ensued long after the strom had passed. After all, New Orleans is the most valuable city in the entire state and has always been a premier tourist attraction for this nation..

However, after the initial chaos, FEMA failed miserably. Are you aware that there are several bio-chemical weapons labs throughout the NO area? Knowing the disaster that was about to, then that took place during Katrina, how does one justify the lack of serious response from the federal government that knew these labs existed and their potential for an even wider disaster that may have affected not only the fisheries in the gulf, but also affected neraby states?

Katrina was a failure by all levels of government.

We are Americans and we should have demanded more accoutability and responsibility from our government .. all of it.

[replicajoy]

To steer somewhat back on topic, I am surprised that I didn't hear about this until now either. This is a gross violation.

I am no gun-lover by any means, but it is very true that this goes beyond guns themselves. This is a terrible thing Nagin did and sets an awful precedent.

And bringing this topic up in no way diminishes the value of life people have, BAC, and I believe it does you a disservice to say it does.

[YpbWF5Yo]

To steer somewhat back on topic, I am surprised that I didn't hear about this until now either. This is a gross violation.

I am no gun-lover by any means, but it is very true that this goes beyond guns themselves. This is a terrible thing Nagin did and sets an awful precedent.

And bringing this topic up in no way diminishes the value of life people have, BAC, and I believe it does you a disservice to say it does.

I respect your right to your opinion.

[rsdefwgxvcfdts]

There are a lot of reasons to be upset with Nagin, but removing guns from homes isn't one of them. This is an issue for the gun-lovers, plan and simple, and not an issue for human-lovers.

I was part of an organized effort to bring food and clothes to New Orleans after the tragedy .. and after what I witnessed, this angst about guns seems really really silly to me .. but don't mind me .. I'm a human-lover.

I am ABSOLUTELY not a fan of guns - no siree bob. I AM a fan of the United States Constitution. If we say, "Well, it's Ok here" and rationalize it - that's a slippery slope. The US Constitution is probably one the the best documents that protects the inherent rights of humans. No law can be absolutely perfect all the time, but we are a country that operates under the principle of common law (thus, precedence is taken as a validation of further rationalizations for Constitutional violations). Not a good idea - leads to anarchy and the only ones to profit are attorneys.