[Zaebal]

And the UN never issues politically biased claptrap.

[andreas]

"We are turning out a generation of young people who are unhappy, unhealthy, engaging in risky behaviour, who have poor relationships with their family and their peers, who have low expectations and don't feel safe."

Current government policies, on the whole, encourage the least competent parents to have more children and the more competent parents to limit their involvement with their children. We mandate attendence at child warehouses to ensure interaction with the unkempt and the unruly. We subsidize failure and fail to encourage excellence. And we promote gang violence. What else could we possibly expect?

(This foregoing any chest-thumping comments about measurement bias, which could be not only a factor, but even the largest factor, in our poor ranking, in favor of discussing the actual shortfalls of how we handle our children.)

Spoken like a true Nazi.

But of course dumb motherfuckers might try to say we should sacrifice our country to please dumbshits.

Some of the lower IQ of the bunch here might even suggest that we should immediately stop fighting a war being waged against us in order to further the goals of the children and adults who are developmentally disabled enough to think like mentally challenged children.

[LsrSRVxR]

Do you genuinly know what UNICEF is about?
UNICEF Funding :: Advocate :: Volunteer :: U.S. Fund for UNICEF - UNICEF USA

[Enjoymmsq]

Have you any proof that they left out private schools... I presume this being UNICEF it was a cross sample....

I would think that, in Ireland, if the head of the Education Department decided to participate in the study, they would tell all the schools to participate and the schools in the country would pretty much fall in line, right? (Yes, that's a brash generalization, but the point I'm trying to make is that in Ireland there is such a thing as a "national head of education".)

It doesn't work that way here in the US: each of the schools are localized, with each local school's level of autonomy different from State to State. You could very well have the head of education in the State of NY be able to order his/her schools to participate in the WHO survey, but the situation could be very different in, say, Illinois or Florida.

The situation is far more murky at the Private school level - the level of control is so greatly reduced that in many States the main interaction the state has with the schools are yearly inspections and tracking student development through a series of tests. A private school would have (at least prior to No Child Left Behind) very little interaction with the Federal Government, unless the school was receiving grants or other aid.

To be honest, I would be shocked if most homeschooled parents learned about the existence of the survey. And I can guarantee you that 99.999% of them would've thrown it away had it even been mailed to them - it's the nature of the beast. You homeschool because you don't want your kids in government schools... submitting yourself to a UN survey?

To get this survey into every school in the US, UNICEF would have to get the approval of 50 states, 14,000 school districts, 27,000 individual private schools, and 2 million sets of parents.

I'm just not seeing it happen, especially for the private schools and homeschoolers.

In case you're interested in some comparative numbers, here is a list of the private Kindergarten-Secondary (1-12 year) schools in Knoxville (37 of them, not counting colleges and universities, including 12.5% of all school-age children in the county). Compare the number to the entirety of post-Primary fee-paying schools in Ireland (57, including colleges and universities, which aren't included in the Knoxville count).

Anyway, my point is since the number of fee-paying pre-Tertiary schools in my county of 400,000 people exceed the number in your country of 4,000,000, there are obvious organizational differences between the two countries, differences which must impact the actual distribution of the WHO survey.

My little girl is going to St. John Neumann's.

[Heliosprime]

We are getting short changed…..as far as money being spent on the war as opposed to education, that’s not quite the reality…educational spending has gone up every year, through fed. Hand outs and the states apportioning more of their budgets to education despite the fact that we are being short changed as it appears no matter how much money we throw at the issue, we are not getting the results we are paying for…...money is NOT the issue in education, it’s the quality of the teachers schools and administration that control them..

Somethings got to give..I am strong proponent of vouchers…..those who say it drains resources from public school are being dishonest and not looking at the numbers…….

ex: in Florida were the state and courts are waging a battle over vouchers, parents who elect to take a voucher, only get a portion of the money that the state allots to their school district and school per pupil..……the rest stays with the system and the parents only gets 1/3 if that..so, what is the other 2/3’s of that money being used for since that pupil is no longer in the system? Per pupil spending goes up, test scores are stagnant..its not money that is the issue here….

To surface an analogy; if folks are worked up about spending on the war, they see as ineffective and a waste, why it is okay to protest that, but yet we continue to throw money at a school system that does not work? Pragmatically, there is no difference if they are both losing ventures not meeting the goals, ipso facto- they should both have the plug pulled on them….

[Grizli]

Anyone who works with today's children knows the chief problem (in the US) is that the average 'Middle Class' (actually Working Poor, more properly) family can no longer afford to feed, clothe, or adequately parent them.

[Enjoymmsq]

There's a difference between the "middle class" and the "working poor". Perhaps the problem is a lack of understanding of the definition of those two terms on your part.

In case you're interested, here's a Department of Agriculture PDF detailing how much people spend on their children in the US. As you note, food and clothing, two of the items on your list, range from $1,200 - $2,500/year. Housing is an additional $2,500.

[Grizli]

To the contrary, with a negative 1% saving rate- ame as 1933's, the Middle Class IS the Working Poor.

For example, at ther school district where I teach most kids would have no breakfast if not for our school program.

[Enjoymmsq]

Selection bias. If that is the case, your particular district is far, far below the Wisconsin norm:

Wisconsin Statistics

• Wisconsin had the largest percentage increase in school and low-income student participation in the School Breakfast Program in the United States for the 2005-06 school year
• 58% of schools participate in the School Breakfast Program
• 29 % of low income students eat school breakfast
• 13% of students eat school breakfast
• 306 new schools offered breakfast in the 2005-06 school year
• there was an 14.2% increase in school breakfast participation in the 2005-06 school year in low income students - the largest in the United States

UWEX Family Living Program - School Breakfast Program


13% of Wisconsin students eat breakfast at school. If over 50% of the students in your district do so, as claimed, then your district is nowhere near representative of the overall shape of the country.

Or even your state, for that matter.

Of course, one doesn't have to be at the poverty line to receive a subsidized breakfast. According to the USDA

Any child at a participating school may purchase a meal through the School Breakfast Program. Children from families with incomes at or below 130 percent of the Federal poverty level are eligible for free meals. Those with incomes between 130 percent and 185 percent of the poverty level are eligible for reduced-price meals. (For the period July 1, 2006, through June 30, 2007, 130 percent of the poverty level is $26,000 for a family of four; 185 percent is $37,000.) Children from families over 185 percent of poverty pay full price, though their meals are still subsidized to some extent.
http://www.fns.usda.gov/cnd/breakfas...PFactSheet.pdf

[Grizli]

Does not count those who are too proud, do not eat, and whose performance throughout the day shows it. Also does not count those who share breakfst meals at school- something we allow.

That's for both Wisconsin and my district's stats.

For the US as a whole, the picture is all too clear-
The 'proud', former-Middle Class can't support the next generation.

[Enjoymmsq]

Does not count those who are too proud, do not eat, and whose performance throughout the day shows it. Also does not count those who share breakfst meals at school- something we allow.

That's for both Wisconsin and my district's stats.

For the US as a whole, the picture is all too clear-
The 'proud', former-Middle Class can't support the next generation.

Er... you're counter-claiming that a minimum of 38% of all Wisconsin students are "too proud" to eat, or somehow have overcome the biological necessity of it?

Got a cite for that?

And why would kids have to share free breakfast's that are provided by the State? I thought they were poor, not the State of Wisconsin.

[Gymnfacymoota]

Dude!! We have 2 wars to pay for. We can't be spending money on children right now. Priorities man! We have to build schools in Iraq and bomb cities and rebuild stuff the civil war keeps blowing up.

Sheesh.

You're right. We shouldn't be paying for either of those.

[Grizli]

JohnT,

Too 'proud' to admit they get no food at home, and so their parents don't sign-up for the program.
That's an endemic problem with all public assiatance programs.

I trust that you've not been to a public school in the past decade or so?

And know nothing of adolescent behaviors.

[Enjoymmsq]

Having once been an adolescent on assistance (subsidized lunches were $.10, God forbid you should have nine cents because you dropped a penny underneath your locker one day) didn't prevent me from learning how to separate beliefs from facts, statistical analysis from feelings.

Nor does it mean that I don't understand "hunger". I am, after all, a living being too.

I'm still waiting on your citation.

[Grizli]

If you are so big into stats, them I'm sure you know that a single data point should not be used to describe an entire population.

And I'm sure you know the US child poverty rate is one of the highest in the industrialized world.

And we're talking free, not partially subsidized, here.

[Enjoymmsq]

If you are so big into stats, them I'm sure you know that a single data point should not be used to describe an entire population.

And I'm sure you know the US child poverty rate is one of the highest in the industrialized world.

And we're talking free, not partially subsidized, here.

You're the one using a single data point, your school district, and correlating it to the overall health of the US, not I.

If you are confused about this, here is the relevant post

To the contrary, with a negative 1% saving rate- ame as 1933's, the Middle Class IS the Working Poor.

For example, at ther school district where I teach most kids would have no breakfast if not for our school program. My entire point on this thread is warning against selection bias. Possible selection bias in the WHO study, and now selection bias based upon observations of one school district in Wisconsin.

[Grizli]

The data of the decline of the US Middle Class is so complete that no selection bias could account for it.

And the report (the aggregate population) only further underlines that.

[Grizli]

And to be sure,

By a 'single data point', I (and you) are speaking about your experiences with school lunch programs.

[Enjoymmsq]

Uh, my arguments are supported by cited data coming from primary sources that include all school age children both in the US and in selected states.

Your argument rests upon your current experiences in one school district in a rust belt state, and the expression of your experience does not match even what the government of your state tells me.

[Grizli]

A 'rust belt' state whiich has the highest % of Middle Class hangers-on (along with Indiana) than does any other state in this once-proud union.
Reason is we have the highest % of manufacturing jobs, along with Indiana.

Your knowledge of Wisconsin's economy seems off by a factor of 180 degrees.

Your knowledge of school age children is- what?? That the above-mentioned rankings of child welfare are off because of selection bias??

That is ridiculous when viewed in light of the accepted fact that the US Middle Class has been decimated since we lowered our tariffs to compete straight-up with $0.16- $1.00/hr labor.