[tickerinet]

Wait. I want to understand what you guys are saying.

You're saying that an industry that is rolling in more cash than they know what to do with; that is making profits at a level never seen before in the history of humanity should be getting tax subsidies?

How does that make sense?

Universal truth: When the government increases a tax, or levies a fee, or removes an incentive that diminishes the profit of a corporation, that gets passed down to the consumer.

It does not matter if it is a Democrat or Republican controlled government, or what level of government it is. When you diminish profit through increased cost of doing business, that cost is conveyed to the consumer.

Matt

[JTS_tv]

Universal truth: When the government increases a tax, or levies a fee, or removes an incentive that diminishes the profit of a corporation, that gets passed down to the consumer.

It does not matter if it is a Democrat or Republican controlled government, or what level of government it is. When you diminish profit through increased cost of doing business, that cost is conveyed to the consumer.

Matt

Ah, but the difference is that when the consumer actually gets to see the price increase, instead of it being masked by tax break, then the consumer can decide what sort of backlash there will be to the producer.

[tickerinet]

Backlash aside, increased cost of doing business -> increased cost to the consumer.

Matt

[TheBestCheapestOEM]

So if the consumer gets a break at the pump because oil companies have 7.6 billion dollars of US taxpayer subsidies, why didn't we see a break at the pump when they had those subsidies?

[JTS_tv]

Backlash aside, increased cost of doing business -> increased cost to the consumer.

Matt

Sure. But then the market gets to decide if the cost is acceptable. Isn't that how the free market is supposed to work?

[tickerinet]

So what alternative to gasoline is there if the market decides the cost is too high?

Matt

[TheBestCheapestOEM]

So if the consumer gets a break at the pump because oil companies have 7.6 billion dollars of US taxpayer subsidies, why didn't we see a break at the pump when they had those subsidies?

And since we didn't see a break at the pump, instead we saw the pump price rise, I would have to think there will be no change at the pump as the oil companies pay their fair share of taxes, as they should.

[tickerinet]

Another thought - why not return these billions to the taxpayers?

Matt

[ClorrerVeks]

Sure. But then the market gets to decide if the cost is acceptable. Isn't that how the free market is supposed to work?

I believe that a cut in taxes to the oil companies increases the application of free market principles. Since it removed approx 7.6 billion dollars of government interference in the market. Now however the congress has decided to add the 7.6 billion dollars of government intervention back into the market place.

[ClorrerVeks]

And since we didn't see a break at the pump, instead we saw the pump price rise, I would have to think there will be no change at the pump as the oil companies pay their fair share of taxes, as they should.

What would the price of gasoline been without those tax breaks? Unless you can answer that question you can't say for sure if we saw a break at the pump or not.

[TheBestCheapestOEM]

I believe that a cut in taxes to the oil companies increases the application of free market principles. Since it removed approx 7.6 billion dollars of government interference in the market. Now however the congress has decided to add the 7.6 billion dollars of government intervention back into the market place.

And this is how we will get our alternative to gasoline engines.

[TheBestCheapestOEM]

What would the price of gasoline been without those tax breaks? Unless you can answer that question you can't say for sure if we saw a break at the pump or not.

Do you think it would have been higher than $3.00 a gallon as we saw happen? We are still at $2.55 here in NorCal.

Can you seriously believe that the rise in price at the pump over the past 2 years was a price break?

[MegaJIT]

Another thought - why not return these billions to the taxpayers?

Matt

If those funds are actualy applied as promised then it will be furthering the legitimate state interest of reducing our dependance on middle eastern oil. It can be argued that such a vital state interest outweighs the value of returning the money to taxpayers in the form of cash.

[JTS_tv]

So what alternative to gasoline is there if the market decides the cost is too high?

Matt

There are many reactions that the marketplace can take:
-Buy more fuel efficient cars
-Use more public transportation
-Use non-gasoline-burning transportation (bicycles/walking)
-Increase funding into biodiesel and other alternatives
etc
etc
etc




@ Robert: is all taxation interference in the market? Or, is unequal taxation (i.e. subsidies) interference in the market?

[MegaJIT]

So what alternative to gasoline is there if the market decides the cost is too high?

Matt

When we stop hiding the full cost of gas with tax breaks and royalty giveaways then the price difference between oil and alternative fuels decreases. That should encourage more research and production into those alternatives. It should also increase conservation measures.

[ClorrerVeks]

Do you think it would have been higher than $3.00 a gallon as we saw happen? We are still at $2.55 here in NorCal.

Can you seriously believe that the rise in price at the pump over the past 2 years was a price break?

Can you seriously prove that prices wouldn't have been higher without the tax breaks to the oil companies?

An as I have explained to you about 3 times, the main reason gas is so expensive in California is environmental regulations, which you have stated you support. So stop complaining that the price of gasoline is so much more expensive here then the rest of the country.

[ClorrerVeks]

And this is how we will get our alternative to gasoline engines.

So the free market is incapable of producing a viable alternative to gasoline engine? The big government is the only organization capable of solving our problems?

[ClorrerVeks]

There are many reactions that the marketplace can take:
-Buy more fuel efficient cars
-Use more public transportation
-Use non-gasoline-burning transportation (bicycles/walking)
-Increase funding into biodiesel and other alternatives
etc
etc
etc




@ Robert: is all taxation interference in the market? Or, is unequal taxation (i.e. subsidies) interference in the market?

And those should be decisions made by the market, not by the government through taxes on oil companies.

[tickerinet]

What do you folks think the chances are that this 7 Billion dollar tax increase makes it through the house, and then gets signed by the President?

Personally, I don't give it much of a chance.

Matt

[TheBestCheapestOEM]

Can you seriously prove that prices wouldn't have been higher without the tax breaks to the oil companies?

An as I have explained to you about 3 times, the main reason gas is so expensive in California is environmental regulations, which you have stated you support. So stop complaining that the price of gasoline is so much more expensive here then the rest of the country.

Can you tell me what the reason would have been for the price to be higher at the pump? We saw it rise after Katrina to $3.00 a gallon. At the same time we saw the oil companies make record profits. Then the price went down right before the election last November, now it's back up again. The oil companies still making record profits. Do you think the price would have risen without the subsidies so the oil companies could make those record profits anyway? In other words, I don't have to prove the price would have risen for no reason at all, without subsidies, you have to prove they would have, for no reason at all.