[Johnny]

This cuts it. Eric Holder and Obama has alot of explaining to do. We just sent Mexico another 500 MILLION dollars to fight the drug cartels in Mexico--and what is coming to light--at the same time, is our government has been arming their enemy--the Mexican drug cartels. Over the past 8 or 9 years thousands of Mexican militia--police and civilians--including American citizens have been killed in the cross-fire--and our government has been arming them.

It wasn't that long ago--that Hillary and Obama came out and stated that American citizens were arming these violent drug cartels. NOPE--it turns out it was THEM.

US ATF Secretly Arming Mexican Drug Cartels | Real News Reporter


Of course Eric Holder U.S. attorney general-& in charge of the Justice department--is denying any knowledge of this--LOL A congressional investigation is now underway.

[JacksHH]

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Ok, you want these cartels to obtain guns so you can bust them for doing it.

Then you bust them WHEN you have them confirmed in their possession. BEFORE they have time to use them. And you coordinate with the Mexican side so you have both sides of the border covered.

But no, we have some genius associated with this that's going to build a BIG case he can use to get promoted with. Wonder how that moron is going to try and save his job now.

[VrQsgM7c]

HAARP Data Says Japan Quake was Induced | Real News Reporter

This article should give you a good idea of the credibility of the source.

[Sxscdergh]

This cuts it. Eric Holder and Obama has alot of explaining to do. We just sent Mexico another 500 MILLION dollars to fight the drug cartels in Mexico--and what is coming to light--at the same time, is our government has been arming their enemy--the Mexican drug cartels. Over the past 8 or 9 years thousands of Mexican militia--police and civilians--including American citizens have been killed in the cross-fire--and our government has been arming them.

It wasn't that long ago--that Hillary and Obama came out and stated that American citizens were arming these violent drug cartels. NOPE--it turns out it was THEM.

Of course Eric Holder U.S. attorney general-& in charge of the Justice department--is denying any knowledge of this--LOL A congressional investigation is now underway.

If you remember, the “Numb-nut and his criminal wife administration” pardoned several Mexican drug lords when they were impeached from office.

[JacksHH]

HAARP Data Says Japan Quake was Induced | Real News Reporter

This article should give you a good idea of the credibility of the source.

CBS news isn't credible?

[VrQsgM7c]

CBS news isn't credible?

what?

[POMAH_K]

This cuts it. Eric Holder and Obama has alot of explaining to do. We just sent Mexico another 500 MILLION dollars to fight the drug cartels in Mexico--and what is coming to light--at the same time, is our government has been arming their enemy--the Mexican drug cartels. Over the past 8 or 9 years thousands of Mexican militia--police and civilians--including American citizens have been killed in the cross-fire--and our government has been arming them.

It wasn't that long ago--that Hillary and Obama came out and stated that American citizens were arming these violent drug cartels. NOPE--it turns out it was THEM.

US ATF Secretly Arming Mexican Drug Cartels | Real News Reporter


Of course Eric Holder U.S. attorney general-& in charge of the Justice department--is denying any knowledge of this--LOL A congressional investigation is now underway.

This story has been growing legs for the past couple of months and it's looking more and more like there was a conspiracy to manufacture evidence in an effort to support legislation further restricting the availability of semi-auto rifles.

There is now evidence that at least one of the weapons tracked by this program was used to kill border agent Brian Terry and several more weapons have turned up on the other side of the border in murders there. One might also notice that the time frame for the expansion of "Gunrunner" and the increase in border violence by the cartels coincide. Correlation isn't necessary the same as causation but it sure should make one scratch their head and ponder a little.

[POMAH_K]

what?

Do yourself a favor and Google up "Project Gunrunner".

This isn't some hairball conspiracy theory. There is quite a bit of evidence and testimony from ATF agents. This story has hit (albeit quite lightly) in the main stream media as well with CBS having done a significant piece on it.

[JacksHH]

what?

Obviously you didn't click the Youtube link in the story or bother to watch it. Which is where RNR got the story from.

[Lån-Penge]

This is shameful and, in my mind, potentially impeachable.

To say that he or Holder didn't authorize it is bullshit. It was a pretty big operation. If they did know about it, they should do the honorable thing and resign. No, I realize it's a pipe dream to think that a lib might actually do something "honorable", but one can hope.

If they didn't know about it, then they're incompetent, and should resign because of that.

How many people have been killed because of the raging incompetence levels of O'Siah and Holder?

[VrQsgM7c]

Do yourself a favor and Google up "Project Gunrunner".

This isn't some hairball conspiracy theory. There is quite a bit of evidence and testimony from ATF agents. This story has hit (albeit quite lightly) in the main stream media as well with CBS having done a significant piece on it.

I was commenting on the credibility of RNR, not CBS. I realize that CBS was part of the source material for the RNR article, but there is a distinct difference in the reporting style of CBS vs. RNR. RNR is much more editorial.

I'm not suggesting that our government isn't part of a trade like this. I'm suggesting that sites like RNR editorialize the data presented.

For example, the link I provided showed them using actual data that is credible, but they intentionally twisted it to suit their own interpretation of the data.

That being said, Project Gunrunner doesn't seem that surprising when considering what the CIA has been connected to with drug trade in South America.

The War on Drugs is just as futile as most gun control efforts.

Both Mexico and the U.S. should legalize the weapons involved (and the drugs involved as well). Once all these markets are legal, the profit margins go way down, and cartels no longer have an incentive to sell them.

[POMAH_K]

I was commenting on the credibility of RNR, not CBS. I realize that CBS was part of the source material for the RNR article, but there is a distinct difference in the reporting style of CBS vs. RNR. RNR is much more editorial.

I'm not suggesting that our government isn't part of a trade like this. I'm suggesting that sites like RNR editorialize the data presented.

For example, the link I provided showed them using actual data that is credible, but they intentionally twisted it to suit their own interpretation of the data.

That being said, Project Gunrunner doesn't seem that surprising when considering what the CIA has been connected to with drug trade in South America.

The War on Drugs is just as futile as most gun control efforts.

Both Mexico and the U.S. should legalize the weapons involved (and the drugs involved as well). Once all these markets are legal, the profit margins go way down, and cartels no longer have an incentive to sell them.

Oh...my apologies...I didn't realize that we were discussing writing styles and personal preferences regarding editorials here. For some strange reason I thought we were talking about ATF and DOJ committing crimes which have gotten Americans (and Mexicans) killed while promoting a political agenda to restrict the Constitutional rights of the American citizenry.

My bad.

[VrQsgM7c]

Oh...my apologies...I didn't realize that we were discussing writing styles and personal preferences regarding editorials here. For some strange reason I thought we were talking about ATF and DOJ committing crimes which have gotten Americans (and Mexicans) killed while promoting a political agenda to restrict the Constitutional rights of the American citizenry.

My bad.

Derailment happens often enough here that I didn't think it was such an offending thing.

That being said, it's not like I'm defending the government selling illegal weapons to drug cartels.

Again, if we simply legalized these weapons (and if Mexico did as well), then the problem would be mostly solved.

[JacksHH]

I was commenting on the credibility of RNR, not CBS. I realize that CBS was part of the source material for the RNR article, but there is a distinct difference in the reporting style of CBS vs. RNR. RNR is much more editorial.

I'm not suggesting that our government isn't part of a trade like this. I'm suggesting that sites like RNR editorialize the data presented.

For example, the link I provided showed them using actual data that is credible, but they intentionally twisted it to suit their own interpretation of the data.

That being said, Project Gunrunner doesn't seem that surprising when considering what the CIA has been connected to with drug trade in South America.

The War on Drugs is just as futile as most gun control efforts.

Both Mexico and the U.S. should legalize the weapons involved (and the drugs involved as well). Once all these markets are legal, the profit margins go way down, and cartels no longer have an incentive to sell them.

Alcohol sales in the US alone are over 100 billion annually, and you think they won't have an incentive to sell them?

Didn't prohibition teach you anything?

[VrQsgM7c]

Alcohol sales in the US alone are over 100 billion annually, and you think they won't have an incentive to sell them?

Didn't prohibition teach you anything?

Uh, what? Yeah, prohibition taught me that banning things doesn't usually work -- hence, my support for legalizing the guns involved and the drugs involved.

[POMAH_K]

Derailment happens often enough here that I didn't think it was such an offending thing.

That being said, it's not like I'm defending the government selling illegal weapons to drug cartels.

Again, if we simply legalized these weapons (and if Mexico did as well), then the problem would be mostly solved.

The weapons are already legal.

What is illegal is selling them to an ineligible person. In this case there was all kinds of evidence that the guns being purchased were going to be used by someone other than the purchaser. That's illegal. Beyond that, there was reason to believe that the guns were going to be used by people who intended to use them for criminal activity. That's not only illegal but is also flat out stupid. On top of THAT it appears that this illegal activity was being conducted with the intent to manufacture evidence to support a political goal of restricting private ownership of semi-automatic weapons. That is tyranny.

[Bromymbollile]

This story has been growing legs for the past couple of months and it's looking more and more like there was a conspiracy to manufacture evidence in an effort to support legislation further restricting the availability of semi-auto rifles.

I've heard that conspiracy theory and I don't buy it just like I don't for other conspiracy theories. You'll also see this issue become a partisan dog chew toy with gratuitous accusations. If it turns out Obama or Holder knew about it and are lying to the public about their knowledge and evidence comes forward proving that, then they deserve what comes with it. However, there's no evidence I've seen produced to date supporting that they did.

What's clear to me is that this 'sting operation' existed. It had the intent of following the sale of the weapons so they would identify high-level members of these gangs and identify their other gang members and track their operations, etc. That part I understand. The problem with this kind of 'sting,' however, as opposed to using traceable drugs and money, etc, is that guns kill people (drugs do too, but I think you get the point). IMO, this means wasn't justified by the ends, it was a terrible piece of judgement that didn't take into account the 'law of unintended consequences,' and someone should be held responsible and this kind of thing prevented in the future.

That seems to be what will be happening:

. . . "I did not authorize it; Eric Holder, the attorney general, did not authorize it. He's been very clear that our policy is to catch gun-runners and put them into jail," Obama said.

Clarity about what exactly took place during Project Gunrunner may come soon: Holder has asked the Justice Department's inspector general to investigate.

Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA), chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, has also launched his own probe. He told a radio show that he has four investigators working full-time to try and understand why guns were allowed to "walk" over the border without any safeguards in place.

Obama said that he would hold someone responsible if, indeed, a mistake was made.

"We have to make sure that we're enforcing the kinds of measures that will stop the flow of guns and cash down south that is helping to fuel these transnational drug cartels," he said.

"There may be a situation here in which a serious mistake was made," he said. "If that's the case, then we'll find out and we''ll hold someone accountable."

. . . President Obama on Project Gunrunner: A 'Serious Mistake' May Have Been Made | TPMMuckraker

I expect him to do so.

[VrQsgM7c]

The weapons are already legal.

What is illegal is selling them to an ineligible person. In this case there was all kinds of evidence that the guns being purchased were going to be used by someone other than the purchaser. That's illegal. Beyond that, there was reason to believe that the guns were going to be used by people who intended to use them for criminal activity. That's not only illegal but is also flat out stupid. On top of THAT it appears that this illegal activity was being conducted with the intent to manufacture evidence to support a political goal of restricting private ownership of semi-automatic weapons. That is tyranny.

I could be wrong here, but I believe gun laws are already much more restrictive in Mexico. If they had a market as open and legal as ours, then the value of these weapons would go down considerably in their market.

So, you're correct that the legality of these guns isn't an issue here, but it is over there.

The legality of the drugs being sold is an issue both here and there and could be similarly resolved through a process of decriminalization and legalization.

[Bromymbollile]

The weapons are already legal.

What is illegal is selling them to an ineligible person. In this case there was all kinds of evidence that the guns being purchased were going to be used by someone other than the purchaser. That's illegal. Beyond that, there was reason to believe that the guns were going to be used by people who intended to use them for criminal activity. That's not only illegal but is also flat out stupid. On top of THAT it appears that this illegal activity was being conducted with the intent to manufacture evidence to support a political goal of restricting private ownership of semi-automatic weapons. That is tyranny.

I think this 'sting' was a terrible idea as explained above. That said, what you're saying here is typical for any kind of 'sting' operation, e.g., drugs, money laundering, guns with controlled coverage unlike here, etc. It is also legal for law enforcement to conduct 'sting' operations and it's not considered to be engaging or tolerating criminal activity. For example, a cop is not deemed to be a drug dealer who violated drug laws just because he sold some dope to a distributor as part of a 'sting.'

[JacksHH]

Uh, what? Yeah, prohibition taught me that banning things doesn't usually work -- hence, my support for legalizing the guns involved and the drugs involved.

Which completely contradicts your point that they wouldn't have an incentive to sell them.

They'll have MORE freedom and incentive to sell them.