[Erawise]

But isn't the conservative position (not necessarily yours) that if people aren't getting paid enough, it's because they're not working hard enough?

It's these people's fault, not our fault, not the company's fault, and surely not President Obama's fault, right?

Quintessential liberal comment in the liberal v conservative bipolar conflict.

"Centrist" my arse!

[8cyVn4RJ]

Quintessential liberal comment in the liberal v conservative bipolar conflict.

"Centrist" my arse!

So, who are those centrists, then? You claim to be one, but sure smell like a partisan.

75% of Americans are centrists - why can't you list 20 or 30 USPOL members who are centrists?


Oh, and simply restating a position used by self-proclaimed conservatives is not partisanship, any more than restating a position used by self-proclaimed liberals would be.

[JacksHH]

You are aware that the unemployment figures have been calculated in the same way for several administrations now, right?

Of course, they've been hiding things for decades. You didn't think that was a new development did you?

[8cyVn4RJ]

Of course, they've been hiding things for decades. You didn't think that was a new development did you?

"They" being who?

[JacksHH]

Quintessential liberal comment in the liberal v conservative bipolar conflict.

"Centrist" my arse!

Yeah, he says that, yet I can't remember ever seeing him take a position that was a "conservative" position. Might be a few I can't remember, but a liberal position? He's all over defending those most of the time.

[JacksHH]

"They" being who?

The government of course. Have you ever actually bothered to look at the Labor numbers? It's all there, you have to look for it though.

[Erawise]

A very noble position to hold, one that more people could benefit from.



That may be true but if it were the most effective way of measuring unemployment then all the major news organizations would use this standard. I'm using the standard that allows us to compare easily between now and before.



You should want to blame the people responsible for the massive transfer of wealth and class warfare that has been going on for decades - the REPUBLICANS.



How can anyone find solutions when they don't even admit that an entire political party is pushing for the exact same policies that nearly destroyed the country (and the world) in the first place?


It won't solve itself and it won't be solved with Republicans actively trying to tear down the POTUS above all else. Or worse actively trying to prevent recovery by slashing spending.


I think the truth that people don't want to hear is that Republicans have dupped anyone making less than 250K per year into voting for them by using catchy soundbites and playing to their clueless base.

What I'm hearing you say is that it's all the Republicans' fault and none of the Democrats' fault.

But in truth, it is partially the Republicans' fault and it is partially the Democrats' fault.

The foundational cause of the mess were in is because MCIs -- Multi-Cultural Internationalists -- on the left, those who rule the Dems, and the CGEs -- Corporate Global Expansionists -- on the right, those who rule the Repubs, have for a number of decades now favored the transfer of Americans' living-wage jobs to people of other-country citizenship, the MCIs for their dysfunctional social reasons, and the CGEs for their obsessive economic reasons. For more on the matter, read this: Political Action to Get our Jobs Back!

I greatly caution anyone to avoid getting sucked into the liberal v conservative bipolar conflict of "we're right and you're wrong", as it leads to blindness to the truth and associated ideological irrationality.

The severe un- and under- employment crisis needs solutions, solutions that cannot be found when one's head is enmeshed in the liberal v. conservative bipolar conflict dysfunction.

[8cyVn4RJ]

Yeah, he says that, yet I can't remember ever seeing him take a position that was a "conservative" position. Might be a few I can't remember, but a liberal position? He's all over defending those most of the time.

The fact that I don't defend your positions is simply because I find them indefensible.

I'm a free thinker - I evaluate an issue, look at the facts, examine science (if available), make a decision, and if there is new information available, I will re-visit.

On gun issues I swing far more to the right than the left, especially since I own guns (and will own more). I'd love to own an MG-42, and not a deactivated one.

On social issues, I'm very much in the "mind your own damn business" camp. If that's not "conservative" that's because the "conservative" stance is far too busybodied. Keep your nose out of other people's business, and you'll be fine. Yeah, I also believe in taking care of our countrymen, but that seems to be an American value (or at least it used to be) not a liberal/conservative issue.

So, whatever. Label me what you want, I don't give 2 shits. But running around with this blind partisanship that seeks only to destroy is going to do just that - destroy. It's destroying this country. I love this country too much to just stand idly by and watch you people do that.

[8cyVn4RJ]

The government of course. Have you ever actually bothered to look at the Labor numbers? It's all there, you have to look for it though.

So "they" is "the government" regardless of who's in charge? So, you were just as concerned in the 2000s, and were raising hell about the "real" unemployment rate?

[JacksHH]

So "they" is "the government" regardless of who's in charge? So, you were just as concerned in the 2000s, and were raising hell about the "real" unemployment rate?

And in the 70's, the 80's, and the 90's.

[JacksHH]

The fact that I don't defend your positions is simply because I find them indefensible.

I'm a free thinker - I evaluate an issue, look at the facts, examine science (if available), make a decision, and if there is new information available, I will re-visit.

On gun issues I swing far more to the right than the left, especially since I own guns (and will own more). I'd love to own an MG-42, and not a deactivated one.

On social issues, I'm very much in the "mind your own damn business" camp. If that's not "conservative" that's because the "conservative" stance is far too busybodied. Keep your nose out of other people's business, and you'll be fine. Yeah, I also believe in taking care of our countrymen, but that seems to be an American value (or at least it used to be) not a liberal/conservative issue.

So, whatever. Label me what you want, I don't give 2 shits. But running around with this blind partisanship that seeks only to destroy is going to do just that - destroy. It's destroying this country. I love this country too much to just stand idly by and watch you people do that.

Actually you haven't shown you're a "mind your own damn business" given your support for every entitlement program in existence.

You're a "government mind everyone's business for them".

[CathBraunn]

and yet there were no cries from the cons in 2008 about the "real" unemployment rate, even as it was screaming upwards.

Wait. There was a time when we DIDN'T complain about how the Democrats controlling Congress were wrecking the economy?

That must have happened on my day off.

[flopay]

But isn't the conservative position (not necessarily yours) that if people aren't getting paid enough, it's because they're not working hard enough?

It's these people's fault, not our fault, not the company's fault, and surely not President Obama's fault, right?

I don't think that's really the conservative position outside of what you might hear from the fringe.

As far as it goes though, you have to place at least some (and I would actually argue most) liability for being personally unemployable on the individual.

The fact that America and the American economy is changing isn't new news. This shit has been going on for decades. Even when I was a kid 25 years ago my high school guidance counselor was telling me that "if you don't get a college degree you're not going to be able to get a good job".

We hear that so much in America that it's become cliche.

But there's really no cliche about it. The God's honest truth is that if you don't get a college degree you're not going to be able to get a good job. Sure there are exceptions to this rule, and there are plenty of folks with GEDs doing okay for themselves, but as a rule you need an education to get ahead in America today.

Yet only 29% of Americans have so much as a bachelors degree. Only 29%!

What's worse, only 55% of undergraduates actually graduate. Of the folks who actually have or make the opportunity to go to college nearly half can't be bothered to see it alll the way through.

Sure there are some of them who because of extenuating circumstances have to drop out. But most drop because it's "hard" or because they want to drink and party or because they just can't be bothered.

Then they take that same attitude with them out into the work force and demand "a living wage" even though they're low-quality factors.

So to say that they're not making good money because they don't work hard on the job is a fallacy in my opinion.

But to say thhat they're not making good money because they don't put enough work into understanding the new economy, getting educated enough to be part of today's workforce, making themselves employable, and then keeping their nose to the grindstone with their job hunt until they actually find something they enjoy that pays them well?

I'd say that most Americans don't work anywhere near hard enough at that stuff.

It's easy to blame it on the "big mean corporations" that send all the poor American's jobs offshore. But there are still plenty enough of us holding down good, well-paying, jobs here in the United States to give the lie to that assumption.

Want a good job in America?

Put in the ground work and it will come.

More interested in drinking beer, playing Angry Birds, watching Jersey Shore, showing up last, always being late, wearing chothes and tattoos that show the world how much "personality" you have?

Pick up a shovel or spatula and form a line to the left.

As an afterthough, I wonder how many of the millions of Americans who have been unemployed or under employed over the last few years used that time to go down to the library, borrow some Rosetta Stone, and learn a foreign language? How many jumped through all the hoops necessary to get the government to fund a couple courses at the local junior college? How many volunteered at the local fire or EMY squad since they had all that time on their hands?

How many sat on their ass doing nothing - maybe checking the want-ads in the newspaper a few times a week and doing a little "networking" down at the corner bar?

These folks had years to develop their job skills.

I'd be knocked over in astonishment if more than 2% made wise use of that time.

[Butiqueso]

What I'm hearing you say is that it's all the Republicans' fault and none of the Democrats' fault.

But in truth, it is partially the Republicans' fault and it is partially the Democrats' fault.

The foundational cause of the mess were in is because MCIs -- Multi-Cultural Internationalists -- on the left, those who rule the Dems, and the CGEs -- Corporate Global Expansionists -- on the right, those who rule the Repubs, have for a number of decades now favored the transfer of Americans' living-wage jobs to people of other-country citizenship, the MCIs for their dysfunctional social reasons, and the CGEs for their obsessive economic reasons. For more on the matter, read this: Political Action to Get our Jobs Back!

I greatly caution anyone to avoid getting sucked into the liberal v conservative bipolar conflict of "we're right and you're wrong", as it leads to blindness to the truth and associated ideological irrationality.

The severe un- and under- employment crisis needs solutions, solutions that cannot be found when one's head is enmeshed in the liberal v. conservative bipolar conflict dysfunction.

Thanks for the link. I only recently heard of the MCI or CGE but I had intuited it quite some time ago. I have discerned it happening,just had no name to hang on it. I made the error of only blaming shit on CGE and didn't include its brother, MCI.

One can debate when, where and why both originated, but the fact is, both are here and wreaking havoc upon average Americans. Yet I fear the snowball is growing as it gains momentum. I think we are fucked. Both parties are in one or the other to the gills, with a willing media supporting it. Little attention is given to it. That is why I think we are fucked.

[Erawise]

Thanks for the link. I only recently heard of the MCI or CGE but I had intuited it quite some time ago. I have discerned it happening,just had no name to hang on it. I made the error of only blaming shit on CGE and didn't include its brother, MCI.

One can debate when, where and why both originated, but the fact is, both are here and wreaking havoc upon average Americans. Yet I fear the snowball is growing as it gains momentum. I think we are fucked. Both parties are in one or the other to the gills, with a willing media supporting it. Little attention is given to it. That is why I think we are fucked.

Yeah, it's that "little attention" being given it that not only blows my mind but blows my hopes, too.

[8cyVn4RJ]

And in the 70's, the 80's, and the 90's.

Well, I don't know how old you are - I know I wasn't paying that much attention to unemployment in the 1970s and 1980s - never really struggled to find a job during the 1980s or 1990s anyway until after the dot bomb.

But, I suppose that this leads to a bigger question - is "full employment" in the new definition an attainable goal. The older definition was a single person out of the household. That has shifted over the last 30-40 years to mean all people >16-18 years of age in a household are employed. Is that a reasonable goal?

[dWSOj26H]

so, bottom line, the economy is still improving, and is in way better shape than it was when obama took office and the stimulus bills were passed.

[8cyVn4RJ]

Actually you haven't shown you're a "mind your own damn business" given your support for every entitlement program in existence.

You're a "government mind everyone's business for them".

Please.

My unwillingness to allow fellow Americans to starve is hardly "support for every entitlement program in existence," your gift for pointless and obnoxious hyperbole aside.

It's so nice of you to continue to try to speak for me, though. I really appreciate your willingness to demonstrate the kind of person that you really are.

[dWSOj26H]

Of course, they've been hiding things for decades. You didn't think that was a new development did you?

yeah, but as long as they continue to "hide" the same things and are consistent, we can look at the numbers relative to one another and get an idea about what is going on. that's kind of the point.

the way the unemployment rate is calculated doesn't matter nearly as much as whether or not the bls is consistent in its method of calculation.

[Erawise]

so, bottom line, the economy is still improving, and is in way better shape than it was when obama took office and the stimulus bills were passed.

Though I'd definitely argue the "way" better part, the Dow, yeah, it's been improving all along. Americans getting their living-wage jobs back? Not so much.