[Rasklad]

They can already gain citizenship through military service.

U.S. Citizenship Through Military Service

That's for lawful permanent resident immigrants, though, and comes with limiting conditions.

. . . Non-citizens are eligible to enlist in the military but can not be commissioned. A non-citizen that is eligible to join the military must meet certain requirements: (1) Have an Alien Registration Receipt Card (stamped I-94 or I-551 Green card/INS Form 1-551), (2) Have a bona fide residence established, and (3) Have established a record of the U.S. as their home. Some non-citizens from countries with a reputation of hostility towards the U.S. may also require a waiver. The federal government cannot petition on behalf of an illegal immigrant so that they can obtain legal status and be able to enlist in the military. In order for an immigrant to join the United States military, they must first go through the immigration process of the USCIS (previously known as the INS) and then and then begin the enlisting process. Another requirement is that the Green Card and/or visa if the immigrant desiring to join the military must be valid for the entire period of their enlistment. . . . Immigrants in the Military

[Rasklad]

Was the dream act just for Mexicans, orwould it have covered a Canadian that was here illegally? A cuban? A Hatian? Anyone know?

It has no ethnicity/nationality limitations nor should it as I would definitely not support a racist bill that does such an inequity to others who are excluded and yet are similarly situated:

The Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors Act (the DREAM Act) is a piece of proposed federal legislation in the United States that was first introduced in the United States Senate on August 1, 2001[1] and most recently re-introduced there and the United States House of Representatives on March 26, 2009.

This bill would provide certain illegal and deportable alien students who graduate from US high schools, who are of good moral character, arrived in the U.S. illegally as minors, and have been in the country continuously and illegally for at least five years prior to the bill's enactment, the opportunity to earn conditional permanent residency if they complete two years in the military or two years at a four year institution of higher learning.

The students would obtain temporary residency for a six year period. Within the six year period, a qualified student must have "acquired a degree from an institution of higher education in the United States or [have] completed at least 2 years, in good standing, in a program for a bachelor's degree or higher degree in the United States," or have "served in the uniformed services for at least 2 years and, if discharged, [have] received an honorable discharge."[2] Military enlistment contracts require an eight year commitment, with active duty commitments typically between four and six years, but as low as two years.[3][4]

"Any alien whose permanent resident status is terminated [according to the terms of the Act] shall return to the immigration status the alien had immediately prior to receiving conditional permanent resident status under this Act." [5]

. . . DREAM Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[steevytraunse]

Then let them come here legally under existing laws.

"They" didn't have any choice in the matter. For most of them, America is the only home they've ever known -- in most cases, they were, at a very young age, brought into the country illegally by their parents -- but at 18, they have few options. Opposing the act is a childish attempt to punish the parents through their children.

Traditionally Republicans have supported this act. This legislation was written in large part by Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah), and it has enjoyed the enthusiastic backing of Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.).

The Pentagon supports the act (which suggests that Sunshine's post above is not viable.)
Retired Army lieutenant colonel Margaret Stock says a "crisis in military manpower" is looming as the population ages and the economy improves. She says the military struggled to recruit enough people when the economy was booming just a few years ago because people had more employment options.
"DREAM would give us the ability to tap into a huge number of people who grew up in the United States, were educated here, they talk like Americans, they look like Americans and their loyalty lies with America," says Stock, a former West Point professor who teaches political science at the University of Alaska-Anchorage. The CBO says it will lower the deficit.

What a shame. The right-wingers (which include 5 "blue dog" Democrats) feel that inciting rage and intolerance among their torch-and-pitchfork constituents is more politically advantageous than working to give deserving kids a break.

[Unjucky]

1 million new Hispanics hitting the rolls by 2012, it will get worse .

What we need is national ID and measures to prevent illegals form voting.
We have 1000's here running around with PA State license that they obtained somehow and they are not afraid to flaunt it.

[agiopwer]

I view the typical bleeding-heart liberal perspective here with distrust.

They may say, "the poor illegals, they're suffering and they need our help ..." ..

.. But we all know the accuracy of the general consensus that says legalized illegals will likely vote Democrat, the party that's home to liberals. Indeed, the recent California gubernatorial election proved that to be true for just the Latino faction of the matter alone, with 80% of Latinos voting for the Democrat Brown and only 20% of them voting for the conservative Whitman.

So how do we know that the bleeding-heart whining is not merely a ruse to compel the sympathy vote .. to give lasting power to these liberal whiners?

We don't.

And we don't because of, at the very least, the political conflict of interest inherent to the matter.

Where there is liberal v. conservative political bipolar conflict, the truth is most certainly the first casualty.

[Oriesssedleli419]

I think a good compromise with regard to amnesty in general for those here illegally is to ban them from ever becoming citizens, but working out something that earns them the ability to stay as permanent legal residents. This would have to be part of a comprehensive overhaul that includes strict border control and future enforcement against illegals (including making being here illegally a felony). I also believe that we should let any otherwise law abiding person seeking opportunity (and this would mean no eligibility for public benefits or assistance of any kind) should be allowed in. We should require fluency in both written and spoken English and being a highschool graduate for anyone seeking permanent resident alien status, and either military service or a college degree for anyone seeking citizenship (presuming they entered the country legally).

As for those who are already here who came illegally. They should be given the option of leaving for one full year and re-entering legally, or accepting amnesty which would include permanent bans on ever being citizens, and meeting the requirements above for permanent resident alien status within two years.

Anyone who has committed so much as a misdemeanor (basically anything other than a routing moving violation) would be exempt from this offer.

[Zhgrlpil]

I've got just two words for them: "Tough shit"...

best part is they get to school for free...

[AliceFromHouston]

I think a good compromise with regard to amnesty in general for those here illegally is to ban them from ever becoming citizens, but working out something that earns them the ability to stay as permanent legal residents. This would have to be part of a comprehensive overhaul that includes strict border control and future enforcement against illegals (including making being here illegally a felony). I also believe that we should let any otherwise law abiding person seeking opportunity (and this would mean no eligibility for public benefits or assistance of any kind) should be allowed in. We should require fluency in both written and spoken English and being a highschool graduate for anyone seeking permanent resident alien status, and either military service or a college degree for anyone seeking citizenship (presuming they entered the country legally).

As for those who are already here who came illegally. They should be given the option of leaving for one full year and re-entering legally, or accepting amnesty which would include permanent bans on ever being citizens, and meeting the requirements above for permanent resident alien status within two years.

Anyone who has committed so much as a misdemeanor (basically anything other than a routing moving violation) would be exempt from this offer.

Why do we need to compromise though? The people generally think illegals should be sent home. We are simply waiting for the politicians to actually enforce the already existing laws that everyone supports.

[agiopwer]

I think a good compromise with regard to amnesty in general for those here illegally is to ban them from ever becoming citizens, but working out something that earns them the ability to stay as permanent legal residents. This would have to be part of a comprehensive overhaul that includes strict border control and future enforcement against illegals (including making being here illegally a felony). I also believe that we should let any otherwise law abiding person seeking opportunity (and this would mean no eligibility for public benefits or assistance of any kind) should be allowed in. We should require fluency in both written and spoken English and being a highschool graduate for anyone seeking permanent resident alien status, and either military service or a college degree for anyone seeking citizenship (presuming they entered the country legally).

As for those who are already here who came illegally. They should be given the option of leaving for one full year and re-entering legally, or accepting amnesty which would include permanent bans on ever being citizens, and meeting the requirements above for permanent resident alien status within two years.

Anyone who has committed so much as a misdemeanor (basically anything other than a routing moving violation) would be exempt from this offer.

I understand where fiscal conservatives see more people as more workers to drive down wages, a benefit for business owners, and as more customers, again, a benefit for business owners.

So the conservatives are subject to truth-killing conflict of interest in this matter just as the liberals are.

Those here illegally must leave, and, since they took unfair cuts in line, they must get to the back of the line -- no special favors for line-cutters.

Indeed, our compassion here in the matter is that we allow them to get back in line to come here at all!

But for all who seek eligibility to come to America, our current good immigration policy, that simply needs to be enforced, needs to have one of it's stipulations quite publicized, the stipulation that unemployment of Americans, in general and with consideration to industy-field specificity, be very low, like at 1% or less.

That would be honest and fair, not only to potential immigrants whose turns to come here would be handled fairly ..

.. But to already- and always- legal American citizens, our primary responsibility.

[Rasklad]

I think a good compromise with regard to amnesty in general for those here illegally is to ban them from ever becoming citizens, but working out something that earns them the ability to stay as permanent legal residents. This would have to be part of a comprehensive overhaul that includes strict border control and future enforcement against illegals (including making being here illegally a felony). I also believe that we should let any otherwise law abiding person seeking opportunity (and this would mean no eligibility for public benefits or assistance of any kind) should be allowed in. We should require fluency in both written and spoken English and being a highschool graduate for anyone seeking permanent resident alien status, and either military service or a college degree for anyone seeking citizenship (presuming they entered the country legally).

As for those who are already here who came illegally. They should be given the option of leaving for one full year and re-entering legally, or accepting amnesty which would include permanent bans on ever being citizens, and meeting the requirements above for permanent resident alien status within two years.

Anyone who has committed so much as a misdemeanor (basically anything other than a routing moving violation) would be exempt from this offer.

This might interest you...Colin Hanna of Let Freedom Ring, a conservative group and local politician in my area, wrote pretty much the same thing in a detailed argument. For your review:

Finding the middle ground for real immigration reform | Philadelphia Inquirer | 07/11/2010

[Rasklad]

best part is they get to school for free...

Free? It was paid for by tax dollars..lots of them. The government mandated that they receive that education and thus the US taxpayers made an investment in them that they're not getting a good return upon if not brought into the system appropriately or get deported for someone else's benefit courtesy of the US taxpayers.

[Rasklad]

Why do we need to compromise though? The people generally think illegals should be sent home. We are simply waiting for the politicians to actually enforce the already existing laws that everyone supports.

Poll indicate otherwise for how to deal with those already rooted here versus wanting to crack down going forward. For example, support for the DREAM Act is in the majority (and in a distressed economy too where one expects numbers to be lower than usual), e.g.,

According to the survey results, 70% of Americans favor the DREAM Act, a notable increase in support compared to a similar 2004 poll that placed public support at 58%. Public Support for the DREAM Act | First Focus

Gallup and Rasmussen have the polls lower but still a clear majority, and as they note, when the terms of the act are explained, support jumps.

. . . A slight majority — 52 percent — of likely U.S. voters said children brought to the U.S. illegally who complete two years of college should get a path to legal status, while 36 percent said these children should not be given an opportunity to become citizens.

Voters were more supportive of paths to citizenship for illegal immigrant who serve in the military: 78 percent said children brought to the U.S. illegally who serve in the military should get a chance to become citizens. . . . Rasmussen: Voters Support Idea of DREAM Act | The Washington Independent

Slim Majority of Americans Would Vote for DREAM Act Law

[janeloveslifenow]

"They" didn't have any choice in the matter. For most of them, America is the only home they've ever known -- in most cases, they were, at a very young age, brought into the country illegally by their parents -- but at 18, they have few options.

Okay.

I don't care.

How many of these kids, who are here illegally, have even taken a cursory look at what would be required for them to be here legally? I'm gonna' guess "not too many". They're availing themselves of what we have to offer, so theu're happy; fuck the rules.

Well, fuck them...

Opposing the act is a childish attempt to punish the parents through their children. And ridiculous comments like that are why this is such a problem. Yoou're all too willing to snub your nose at the law. People have always said "Hey, change the law". Well, that's been tried, and it's failed.

People need to take a fucking hint. The American people don't want illegals here, period...

The CBO says it will lower the deficit. So what?

Perhaps you're comfortable attaching a price tag to American citizenship. Good Americans, however, are not...

What a shame. The right-wingers (which include 5 "blue dog" Democrats) feel that inciting rage and intolerance among their torch-and-pitchfork constituents is more politically advantageous than working to give deserving kids a break. "Deserving kids"??

What the fuck did they do to "deserve" anything?

[Rasklad]

What we need is national ID and measures to prevent illegals form voting.
We have 1000's here running around with PA State license that they obtained somehow and they are not afraid to flaunt it.

Illegals voting actually has been very miniscule compared to the hype...very few get through the cracks.

It's even self-executing for the most part not only due to checks but also because it's a federal felony for a non-USC to vote in a federal election and any hopes that one might have for legalising their status gets shit down the toilet by voting. They know that and it's made known to them even in their own community because the evidence of the crime is right in the books for verification and speaks for itself, something they don't want to have to face. This is even true for legal immigrants...they are not permitted to vote in federal elections and they will get deported if caught doing so, e.g.,

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/ny.../17voting.html

As for car registration 'games' concerning vehicles, illegals certainly do it, but it's also really just an American problem generally. Many people engage in 'rate evasion/avoidance' concerning car insurance by registering their vehicles with relatives and friends or registering their vehicle to their parents' homes or holiday homes, etc, in cheaper insurance areas. NY has a high insurance rate and that creates an incentive for people to 'forum shop' for registering their vehicles. Those in NY with connections in PA often choose to register their vehicles in PA. If their insurance companies catch onto that, they can refuse to cover the vehicle for 'rate evasion' fraud if it's blatantly bogus but it's also pretty easy to create a legal situation of 'rate avoidance' by using relatives and keeping connections in the state of registry such as owning properties, making their stay in NY be deemed temporary, etc. Car registration, however, does not allow voting registration, at least in my area.

PA does not allow illegal immigrants to obtain driver's licences and they require proof of citizenship or legal residency to obtain one. If a person is in PA on a temporary visa, then the validity of the licence is limited to the period of visa validity only.

[janeloveslifenow]

Illegals voting actually has been very miniscule compared to the hype...very few get through the cracks.

A single one is far too many...

[Rasklad]

A single one is far too many...

Of course. It's a deportable criminal action regardless of status and should be.

Appendix 74-9 Legal Consequences of Voting by an Alien Prior to Naturalization.

[agiopwer]

... when the terms of the act are explained, support jumps.

Maybe it does among those people with a predisposition for liberal-leaning, but only so long as the whole picture is left unpresented.

When the whole picture .. of the many cross-industry jobs stolen from Americans by illegals, how illegals drive the wages down for American citizens and always-legal immigrants creating 3rd-world poverty across America, of the resource over-utilization caused by illegals that cloggs our streets and emergency rooms and on and on .. when all of the facts of the matter are presented, then intelligent people uncompromised by even a hint of liberal ideological dysfunction .. oppose the DREAM Act and any other form of openning to amnesty.

And then when they realize that the liberal agenda underlying the liberal support of the DREAM Act isn't "compassion" but is instead deceitful manipulation for gain of political power, then they become really soured on the left-wing diatribe.

We cannot afford to add new burdens to our infrastructure.

Now, in a type of recession with 22,000,000 Americans out of work and scores of millions suffering from both un- and under- employment as well as general under-income status, the right thing to do by Americans is to cut back on adding new citizens and legal immigrants.

Clearly, reasonably, the DREAM Act is the wrong thing to do, especially at this time of near-depression suffering by American citizens who need the jobs that the DREAM Actors would essentially be stealing!

The right thing to do is for all illegals, no matter how they became illegal, to return to their country of citizenship and make good changes there to create a manageable demographic, like we once had here in America before the illegal invasion of what now amounts to approximately 20,000,000 illegals in America today.

Polls on the DREAM Act simply present an incomplete picture of the illegal immigration disaster, and thus they are not an accurate guideline of what Americans really want.

It is time for liberals to admit to their political power pandering and cease and desist on the DREAM Act and all efforts of Amnesty, guest worker programs and the like.

Now is the time for all Americans to come together as one American family-nation and take care of their own .. and insist that other countries do the same .. in their own country.

[Rasklad]

Maybe it does among those people with a predisposition for liberal-leaning, but only so long as the whole picture is left unpresented.

When the whole picture .. of the many cross-industry jobs stolen from Americans by illegals, how illegals drive the wages down for American citizens and always-legal immigrants creating 3rd-world poverty across America, of the resource over-utilization caused by illegals that cloggs our streets and emergency rooms and on and on .. when all of the facts of the matter are presented, then intelligent people uncompromised by even a hint of liberal ideological dysfunction .. oppose the DREAM Act and any other form of openning to amnesty.

And then when they realize that the liberal agenda underlying the liberal support of the DREAM Act isn't "compassion" but is instead deceitful manipulation for gain of political power, then they become really soured on the left-wing diatribe.

We cannot afford to add new burdens to our infrastructure.

Now, in a type of recession with 22,000,000 Americans out of work and scores of millions suffering from both un- and under- employment as well as general under-income status, the right thing to do by Americans is to cut back on adding new citizens and legal immigrants.

Clearly, reasonably, the DREAM Act is the wrong thing to do, especially at this time of near-depression suffering by American citizens who need the jobs that the DREAM Actors would essentially be stealing!

The right thing to do is for all illegals, no matter how they became illegal, to return to their country of citizenship and make good changes there to create a manageable demographic, like we once had here in America before the illegal invasion of what now amounts to approximately 20,000,000 illegals in America today.

Polls on the DREAM Act simply present an incomplete picture of the illegal immigration disaster, and thus they are not an accurate guideline of what Americans really want.

It is time for liberals to admit to their political power pandering and cease and desist on the DREAM Act and all efforts of Amnesty, guest worker programs and the like.

Now is the time for all Americans to come together as one American family-nation and take care of their own .. and insist that other countries do the same .. in their own country.

You're seeing this as a liberal/conservative/Dem/GOP thing, and I think that's what suits the politicians who sell that bill of good to you and others that brought you this mess to screw you and these immigrants at issue like the DREAM Act people. Since you're taking the GOP side, let's focus on those cats given I've plenty to say about partisan Dems and the party's bullshit on this topic for any of them too.

From the moment I leave my home in my complex to the moment I arrive at my office complex, it's illegals mowing the lawns, banging the nails, etc. It started with American and Canadian firms using NAFTA to go down to Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America to dump taxpayer subsidised farm goods to bust their domestic agricultural industries as well as price bust and bribe the crap out of officials so US and Canadian firms could outsource American work there and gouge their resources by evicting the people off their lands. Now the people, if not turning to drugs and other crime, are working in sweatshop workers for such firms or heading 'North.'

They then rigged the immigration game to a 'closed legal/open illegal' game knowing large numbers would migrate here even illegally and then work for wage slave standards. This allowed domestic companies to undercut American legal labour by hiring them instead where they have no ability to contest their circumstances here and jack shit to go back to. Meanwhile, the domestic companies involved make undue profit off these people and US companies going below the border save money chopping US jobs and getting tax breaks for it. The Canadians have really gotten a big break by knowing the US is the buffer between them and where their dirty business is going on, so the US absorbs more of the costs of what they've done in this NAFTA deal.

That's what your 'public servants' did for---I mean 'to'--you and them. You know what I think is 'wrong with this picture' insofar as the claims to kick them out now?



They--or others like them--were in the goddamn Congressional gallery for the DREAM Act filibuster. That's right...the Congressional gallery with the GOP and a few Dems telling them no. Shit, Lindsay Graham was on the floors smugly talking right at them how they are 'wasting their time' after championing their case in the past ....

YouTube - Graham Discusses Opposition to DREAM Act and Repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell

(at 3:00 forward)

"To those who have come to my office — you’re always welcome to come, but you’re wasting your time."

Fucking classic...he's addressing them in the gallery of Congress and admitting they are even attending his own Congressional office...which, as you can also hear, he said they are "always welcome to come."

If that doesn't coin how you've been getting screwed by GOP bureaucrats then and now and spun around like a top, I don't know what else besides the obviousness of the mass problem can show it. Did any GOP 'hardass' there ever call the cops on these illegals in the gallery? No. Or when they've shown up at their offices as Graham was hardly the only one? No. Or even as they walked around the halls? No. Or when they've protested outside or at their district offices or wherever else? No. Or when they've shown up to debate them? No.

It's this simple: these people aren't going anywhere. What they want is for them to stick around just like their parents that brought them here as the next generation of young bodies to be used for picking crops, cleaning toilets, wiping corporate couples' baby's arses and washing their plates and bed sheets, mowing lawns, banging nails, etc, at a cheaper price than you and other Americans. This is a nice crop of young cheap labour. That's why they were let in, kept here and are still being kept here in that status.

If you want to free yourself from that, then legalise these people and slam the door shut. They aren't going 'home' and never have and won't because it's not their home anymore if it ever really was given they've been raised here.

Like liberals who just wanted to immediately walk out of Iraq, etc, IMO, this kind of 'conservative' response to a split milk situation is pissing against the wind. It's time to deal with this situation for what it is and try to make the most of it.

Like you presumably, I don't like that this all happened, but it did, and I am seeking realistic solutions that try to make the most out of a bad thing. This DREAM Act does that and offers even more such as well educated self-financed people and military veterans--both of which this nations needs right now. They'll stop being a tool of the economic bottom feeders and produce jobs and things, pay taxes, defend the country in troubling times, etc...it's a 'win-win' rather than a 'lose-lose.'

I haven't the time given the continuing damages done to wax about what ought to have been done or what ought to be the facts...they are what they are.

IMO, many self-described 'conservatives' need a swift kick in the arse too to stop whinging and being what they claim too many liberals do. Stomping feet and whinging like a brat as many do about what ought to be the facts when they aren't is wasting more time, and enough time has been wasted by the politicians already on getting this situation resolved for going forward. They aren't going 'home' nor do enough bottom feeders employers want them to do so who will keep employing them cheaply unless they are given status, so it's time to just deal with it and get the border/immigration situation rectified so I know who the hell is entering this nation and whether they should and how to deal with both types insofar as border and immigration enforcement.

[hotsaucemidl]

"They" didn't have any choice in the matter. For most of them, America is the only home they've ever known -- in most cases, they were, at a very young age, brought into the country illegally by their parents -- but at 18, they have few options. Opposing the act is a childish attempt to punish the parents through their children.

Agreed

[Zhgrlpil]

Free? It was paid for by tax dollars..lots of them. The government mandated that they receive that education and thus the US taxpayers made an investment in them that they're not getting a good return upon if not brought into the system appropriately or get deported for someone else's benefit courtesy of the US taxpayers.

I will pay 40k for each of my kids to go to school, some of these illegals will get grants and such and go for free.. so basically i am paying for my kids and these kids who came here illegaly..

I would vote for the dream act, but the requiremnet is the children would have to turn over names and addresses of everyone in their family here illegaly that do not qualify for the act.