[Frodogzzz]

One thing that really struck me about the debate last night was the stance on immigration.. Everyone was in support of just letting anyone from anywhere in the world, who came here to study math, science or engineering, gain automatic citizenship. The claim being that these people start businesses and that's good for the country.

And it may be.. At the same time, however. I have to wonder if they're just attempting to flood the upper end of the labor market now.

It's a game they play. They wag their fingers at the democrats for fucking around in markets, and then they seek to remove the advantage to American citizens of a labor vacuum.

According to Republican economics, people are supposed to see this vacuum and invest in education to fill it.. It's supply and demand. A function of the market driven economic theory we all (Or most of us, anyway) adhere to..

So, it's a great theory.. But in practice, when they SEE a vacuum, they immediately attempt to fill it by modifying policy.. (And I mean ANY POLICY.. Trade policy, Immigration policy, Monetary policy, Environmental policy, etc.. Whatever! It's all on the fucking table with these guys.)

In this case, who is going to take on a quarter million bucks or so in education debt, just to find themselves competing with the H1B crowd, and now, a promise of instant citizenship upon graduation? They keep whining about an uneducated workforce.. but from where I sit, it is less than a sure bet that someone who follows their prescriptions, takes on a ton of debt and extends their education, won't find themselves less well than someone who say, started a construction company.. Or get a government job. Or do any number of things besides immerse themselves neck deep in debt before they even enter the workforce.

Our market works on incentives.. Why would you want to knock them down wherever you see them?

[Edisesyethisp]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT FUND ANYONE'S EDUCATION.


THE GI BILL WAS A RESPONSE TO AN UNUSUAL SITUATION....

ONE THAT ENDED 66 YEEARS AGO.

[tgs]

Your premise may be flawed. It is quite possible that importing innovators will lead to breakthroughs which exponentially expand the job market.

There are a finite number of geniuses in the world. I'd prefer them to do business here, if possible.

[lipitrRrxX]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


THE REPUBLICANS SEEM TO OPERATE ON THE SAME BASIC

PRINCIPLE AS THE DEMOCRATS:

TAKE THE PEOPLE'S INCOME AWAY FROM THEM,

AND ALWAYS MAKE CERTAIN THAT THE PERSON WHO EARNS MONEY

DOES NOT BENEFIT FROM IT.

[robstamps]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THEY WILL COME HERE.... IN DROVES....

IF WE RETURN TO A BUSINESS-FRIENDLY SYSTEM.

[OccumCymn]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PAY PEOPLE TO ACCEPT A GOOD DEAL.


GOOD PEOPLE SEEK OPPORTUNITY.


PARASITES SEEK SUBSIDIES.

[SaraKonradtt]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THEY WILL COME HERE.... IN DROVES....

IF WE RETURN TO A BUSINESS-FRIENDLY SYSTEM.

Agreed. And it's a good thing.

[BlackBird]

DO FOREIGN NATIONALS WORKING IN THE U.S PAY SOCIAL SECURITY?

[Savviers]

THE HOSTILE BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT IN THE U.S.

TODAY PROBABLY CAUSES MANY FOREIGN

STUDENTS TO GO HOME UPON GRADUATION

TO SEEK EMPLOYMENT...


OR TO GO TO A NON-U.S. COUNTRY.

[sbrscnds]

Your premise may be flawed. It is quite possible that importing innovators will lead to breakthroughs which exponentially expand the job market.

There are a finite number of geniuses in the world. I'd prefer them to do business here, if possible.

Wonderful thesis.. Can you prove that?

I mean, if you are right.. Then we should have unlimited immigration and no border control at all.

I mean, if the pie will just get bigger.. What does anyone have to lose?

[TimEricsson]

Also: How long will this pie growing take?

I mean, it'll happen relatively quickly, right?

All the wonderful sounding macroeconomic theories in the world don't mean a thing if it requires crushing our economy and mass joblessness and stagnation for three or four generations till your theories "kick in" and we start to see some benefit. Assuming they ever do.

We won't be a super power that long, at any rate..

[Mambattedge]

Wonderful thesis.. Can you prove that?

I mean, if you are right.. Then we should have unlimited immigration and no border control at all.

I mean, if the pie will just get bigger.. What does anyone have to lose?

In the absence of the Welfare State, yes, we should have unlimited immigration and open borders. Absolutely.

[iDzcs7TU]

Also: How long will this pie growing take?

I mean, it'll happen relatively quickly, right?

All the wonderful sounding macroeconomic theories in the world don't mean a thing if it requires crushing our economy and mass joblessness and stagnation for three or four generations till your theories "kick in" and we start to see some benefit. Assuming they ever do.

We won't be a super power that long, at any rate..

We don't have an unemployment problem in high-tech industries in the USA. We have just the opposite. We're terribly shorthanded.

The lion's share of the unemployment is in the lowest strata.

[pooncophy]

In the absence of the Welfare State, yes, we should have unlimited immigration and open borders. Absolutely.

LOL!

The policies you suggest are expanding the welfare state, Jeshu..

When there's enough of them, we become Europe..

[BostonDoctorTTT]

LOL!

The policies you suggest are expanding the welfare state, Jeshu..

When there's enough of them, we become Europe..

We can't open our borders and have a welfare state. I get that.

[Jxlacvio]

We don't have an unemployment problem in high-tech industries in the USA. We have just the opposite. We're terribly shorthanded.

The lion's share of the unemployment is in the lowest strata.

1) I'm not sure I believe that..

2) Even if it were correct, that's exactly the kind of incentive I'm referring to.. A labor shortage that would, in theory, if it paid well enough and seemed secure, convince millions of young people to sink themselves to the knees in debt in an attempt to fill it and prosper while doing so.

[rfceicizgm]

Do any of you remember how the Jews killed Rome? Not just with usery and debauchery, but with immigration, and the enslavement of those immigrants children.

[ExelePlavisseu]

1) I'm not sure I believe that..

2) Even if it were correct, that's exactly the kind of incentive I'm referring to.. A labor shortage that would, in theory, if it paid well enough and seemed secure, convince millions of young people to sink themselves to the knees in debt in an attempt to fill it and prosper while doing so.

Well, first of all, there shouldn't be any need to sink yourself into debt. There's an education overhaul that needs done in this nation. Big-time. That is a much bigger barrier to young people than highly qualified and productive immigrants will ever be.

Secondly, the unemployment rate for college graduates was under 5% the last time I checked. And that number includes all of the worthless bachelor degrees out there.

[joanbertis]

Our whole system is based on incentive and reward.. The second we see an incentive, we step in to crush it and deny the reward.

Nobody gives a fuck about people on the lowest end of the economic ladder.. As long as we get a deck built cheap, then we could really care less what happens to them.

However, when you're talking about the upper end of the economic strata.. You're talking about an investment of hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of their lives.

All other factors and theories aside, that's what they're weighing when they take the plunge. Telling them that you're going to open the floodgates of the world on them is not going to affect that calculation in a favorable way.. Telling them that the pie will grow may be correct in the long run.. It may not. What may happen instead is: Yes, the pie grew.. There's more jobs, accompanied by a collapse in wages, and wages are what they're betting on..

I know I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.. And if I were, why wouldn't I bet on something much more concrete? Like a government job forever? Like anything, really, that looked like it had decent earning potential, stability that the government wouldn't arbitrarily undermine and a much lower barrier to entry?

[Kokomoxddcvcv]

Well, first of all, there shouldn't be any need to sink yourself into debt. There's an education overhaul that needs done in this nation. Big-time. That is a much bigger barrier to young people than highly qualified and productive immigrants will ever be.

Secondly, the unemployment rate for college graduates was under 5% the last time I checked. And that number includes all of the worthless bachelor degrees out there.

1) That's great.. But I'm concerned with the world we live in.. Those are the facts on the ground driving this.

2) So what? We've destroyed the environment for non-college grads and now we're going to move on and wreck it for those with degrees in the sciences too? Fabulous.