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**Vemnagelignc** · 11-20-2010, 03:48 PM

What about the "few" though? It doesn't say 'none'. If there are a few, then how can those few animals understand the 4 Noble Truths?

Does anyone have an offline copy of the Samyutta Nikaya to check out this sutta, please? I got the quote from somewhere - but not the whole sutta.

I've got the SN here. The passage you quoted is part of a longer series and should be taken in context, I think. The section title is "The Five Destinations Repetition Series".

Anyone who has read much of the Canon is familiar with the repetitions and listings, so you'll probably be able to infer what's in the sutta despite my many ellipses. It's too long to type in its entirety, but I'll try to give you the gist of it:

(102)(1)"Then the Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his fingernail and addressed the bhikkhus thus:

"What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the little bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?"
"Venerable sir, the great earth is more..."
"So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn in hell. For what reason? Because, bhikkus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four?... [as in Aloka-D's quote] Therefore, bhikkus, an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.'...An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.'"

...

(103) "So, too, bhikkus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings...But those beings are more numerous who pass away as humans are reborn in the animal realm..."

(104) "...domain of ghosts..."
(105) [few humans reborn among devas, many reborn instead in hell...the animal realm...domain of ghosts]
(108) [few beings who pass awas as devas reborn as devas, many reborn instead hell/animal realm/domain of ghosts]
(111) [few pass away as devas and reborn as humans, many instead reborn in hell/animal realm/domain of ghosts]
(114) [few pass away from hell reborn among humans, many instead reborn as above]
(117) [few pass away from hell reborn among devas, many instead...]
(120) [few pass away from animal realm reborn among humans, many instead...]
(123) [few...reborn among devas, many instead...]
(126) [few pass away from the domain of ghosts reborn among humans, many instead...]
(127) [few...reborn among devas, many instead...]
(131) [finished series with many passing away from the domain of ghosts reborn in the domain of ghosts]..."Therefore, bhikkus, an exertion should be made..."

(Bhikkhu Bodhi trans)

This strikes me - as so many other of the repetitive suttas - to have been designed to be memorized. One repeats the stock phrases, keeping track only of one's systematic progress through the changed phrases.

I don't think all the details of each repetition through each of the realms was intended to be taken literally, though the later Abhidhamma apologists apparently did think so. I think the repetition through each of the various realms was purely rhetorical, intended to emphasize the exhaustive nature of the claim that the (only?) way to Liberation was through the 4NT. IOW, it was designed to encourage and energize the monks to be diligent in their practice; I don't see it as an ontological claim to literal truth.

Hope that helps!

11-20-2010, 03:48 PM	#7
Vemnagelignc Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 538 Senior Member	What about the "few" though? It doesn't say 'none'. If there are a few, then how can those few animals understand the 4 Noble Truths? Does anyone have an offline copy of the Samyutta Nikaya to check out this sutta, please? I got the quote from somewhere - but not the whole sutta. I've got the SN here. The passage you quoted is part of a longer series and should be taken in context, I think. The section title is "The Five Destinations Repetition Series". Anyone who has read much of the Canon is familiar with the repetitions and listings, so you'll probably be able to infer what's in the sutta despite my many ellipses. It's too long to type in its entirety, but I'll try to give you the gist of it: (102)(1)"Then the Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his fingernail and addressed the bhikkhus thus: "What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the little bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?" "Venerable sir, the great earth is more..." "So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn in hell. For what reason? Because, bhikkus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four?... [as in Aloka-D's quote] Therefore, bhikkus, an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.'...An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.'" ... (103) "So, too, bhikkus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings...But those beings are more numerous who pass away as humans are reborn in the animal realm..." (104) "...domain of ghosts..." (105) [few humans reborn among devas, many reborn instead in hell...the animal realm...domain of ghosts] (108) [few beings who pass awas as devas reborn as devas, many reborn instead hell/animal realm/domain of ghosts] (111) [few pass away as devas and reborn as humans, many instead reborn in hell/animal realm/domain of ghosts] (114) [few pass away from hell reborn among humans, many instead reborn as above] (117) [few pass away from hell reborn among devas, many instead...] (120) [few pass away from animal realm reborn among humans, many instead...] (123) [few...reborn among devas, many instead...] (126) [few pass away from the domain of ghosts reborn among humans, many instead...] (127) [few...reborn among devas, many instead...] (131) [finished series with many passing away from the domain of ghosts reborn in the domain of ghosts]..."Therefore, bhikkus, an exertion should be made..." (Bhikkhu Bodhi trans) This strikes me - as so many other of the repetitive suttas - to have been designed to be memorized. One repeats the stock phrases, keeping track only of one's systematic progress through the changed phrases. I don't think all the details of each repetition through each of the realms was intended to be taken literally, though the later Abhidhamma apologists apparently did think so. I think the repetition through each of the various realms was purely rhetorical, intended to emphasize the exhaustive nature of the claim that the (only?) way to Liberation was through the 4NT. IOW, it was designed to encourage and energize the monks to be diligent in their practice; I don't see it as an ontological claim to literal truth. Hope that helps!
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