DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - In Which Alexander Berzin Calls the Buddha's Liberative Teachings "Dharma Lite"

**betraaaus** · 06-21-2010, 11:41 PM

The latter involves a lifetime, or more likely, multiple lifetimes of practice during which one's understanding of dependent origination is continuously deepened

Please back this up with a sutta reference. Thank you.

Or perhaps I'll just counter by saying, I have been studying it for an infinite number of lifetimes, then, and I am a D.O. master with an understanding as deep as it gets.

Although strictly speaking such discoveries aren't necessary, they are just likely to occur. Again, please start backing up your words. The sutta I cited would suggest that this is not so. And even if they were likely to occur, so what? Again, I ask, if I were to say right now "Ok, I do believe in rebirth," where does that get me in my practice?

What is more, although "seeing" rebirth is strictly not necessary, rebirth itself is necessary for you or anyone to be able to walk the path to its end. If you are not reborn, then when you die, that's it. Game over. Mission failed. And why must everyone attain Nibbana? Is this a law of the universe? Did God declare it?

You're suggesting that the "ultimate goal" is to end rebirth. In that case, if there is no rebirth, then by your logic, when you die, that's it; mission won! Woo! Would you commit suicide to end your suffering if you found out rebirth was false?

Do you see no other benefit in the Dhamma but ending rebirth? You think a world free of clinging to superstition as truth, a world full of compassion, a world in which people are free of mental suffering, is "tatters"? The benefit of the Dhamma is in life.

Also, that still doesn't answer how belief in rebirth is necessary to Buddhism. If rebirth is true, then it's true regardless of whether or not we believe in it. I'm sincerely interested in knowing how the belief is essential to practice.

06-21-2010, 11:41 PM	#24
betraaaus Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 425 Senior Member	The latter involves a lifetime, or more likely, multiple lifetimes of practice during which one's understanding of dependent origination is continuously deepened Please back this up with a sutta reference. Thank you. Or perhaps I'll just counter by saying, I have been studying it for an infinite number of lifetimes, then, and I am a D.O. master with an understanding as deep as it gets. Although strictly speaking such discoveries aren't necessary, they are just likely to occur. Again, please start backing up your words. The sutta I cited would suggest that this is not so. And even if they were likely to occur, so what? Again, I ask, if I were to say right now "Ok, I do believe in rebirth," where does that get me in my practice? What is more, although "seeing" rebirth is strictly not necessary, rebirth itself is necessary for you or anyone to be able to walk the path to its end. If you are not reborn, then when you die, that's it. Game over. Mission failed. And why must everyone attain Nibbana? Is this a law of the universe? Did God declare it? You're suggesting that the "ultimate goal" is to end rebirth. In that case, if there is no rebirth, then by your logic, when you die, that's it; mission won! Woo! Would you commit suicide to end your suffering if you found out rebirth was false? Do you see no other benefit in the Dhamma but ending rebirth? You think a world free of clinging to superstition as truth, a world full of compassion, a world in which people are free of mental suffering, is "tatters"? The benefit of the Dhamma is in life. Also, that still doesn't answer how belief in rebirth is necessary to Buddhism. If rebirth is true, then it's true regardless of whether or not we believe in it. I'm sincerely interested in knowing how the belief is essential to practice.
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