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**ftqwhbvxlcfop** · 05-02-2012, 03:20 AM

yes. it would be expected the discursive imagination would construe this sutta to be similar to Vajrayana Phowa

but the Buddha simply & literally said here: "if the mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment then this leads (gamani) the mind (citta) to becoming (hoti) lofty (uddha) and distinguished/noble (visesa)

although literal 'rebirth' may be imagined, it appears this is not present in that Sutta. it appears literal 'rebirth' is being inferred, as explained in AN 2.23 & AN 2.25

I am sorry but what you are saying is that the phrase "rises upward and separates out" (uddhagāmi hoti visesagāmi). Should be translated "Becomes lofty and noble" rigth?

So the interpretation of the sutta you quoted in the beginning would then be: (correct me if I am wrong) See the changes in Bold type

Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad. If one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body — endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution & dispersion — is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind — long nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, learning, relinquishment & discernment —Becomes lofty and noble.

Suppose a man were to throw a jar of ghee or a jar of oil into a deep lake of water, where it would break. There the shards & jar-fragments would go down, while the ghee or oil would Becomes lofty and noble. In the same way, if one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body... is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind... Becomes lofty and noble.

So during the body being eaten by different animals the mind becomes lofty and noble?

That sounds not at all logical to me.

What does it even mean? Why would anybody care how noble the mind becomes while ones body is eaten by animals?

No sorry I cant see it. But I am open for suggestions.

And on a second thought what about the Ghee becomming lofty and noble? What is noble about Ghee? Is it not much more logical that the Ghee which is fat will rise in the water, keeping seperate from it as the shards sink to the bottom? And that that is the meaning of the sutta to be applied also to the mind at this passage?

/Victor

05-02-2012, 03:20 AM	#19
ftqwhbvxlcfop Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 526 Senior Member	yes. it would be expected the discursive imagination would construe this sutta to be similar to Vajrayana Phowa but the Buddha simply & literally said here: "if the mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment then this leads (gamani) the mind (citta) to becoming (hoti) lofty (uddha) and distinguished/noble (visesa) although literal 'rebirth' may be imagined, it appears this is not present in that Sutta. it appears literal 'rebirth' is being inferred, as explained in AN 2.23 & AN 2.25 I am sorry but what you are saying is that the phrase "rises upward and separates out" (uddhagāmi hoti visesagāmi). Should be translated "Becomes lofty and noble" rigth? So the interpretation of the sutta you quoted in the beginning would then be: (correct me if I am wrong) See the changes in Bold type Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad. If one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body — endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution & dispersion — is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind — long nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, learning, relinquishment & discernment —Becomes lofty and noble. Suppose a man were to throw a jar of ghee or a jar of oil into a deep lake of water, where it would break. There the shards & jar-fragments would go down, while the ghee or oil would Becomes lofty and noble. In the same way, if one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body... is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind... Becomes lofty and noble. So during the body being eaten by different animals the mind becomes lofty and noble? That sounds not at all logical to me. What does it even mean? Why would anybody care how noble the mind becomes while ones body is eaten by animals? No sorry I cant see it. But I am open for suggestions. And on a second thought what about the Ghee becomming lofty and noble? What is noble about Ghee? Is it not much more logical that the Ghee which is fat will rise in the water, keeping seperate from it as the shards sink to the bottom? And that that is the meaning of the sutta to be applied also to the mind at this passage? /Victor
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