DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post - Paticcasamuppada II: In which Bhikkhu Bodhi Debates at Nanavira's Ghost, and Mettiko

**bestbyV** · 06-16-2010, 06:23 AM

"And what, monks, is aging and death? The aging of beings in the various orders of beings, their old age, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of life, weakness of faculties -- this is called aging. The passing of beings out of the various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body -- this is called death. So this aging and this death are (together) called aging-and-death.

"And what, monks, is birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, descent (into a womb), production, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact -- this is called birth."

Bodhi completely missses the point here.

First, there phrase "in a womb" does not exist in the Pali.

But about death, all that is being said by the Buddha is due to attachment & birth, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, despair & the whole mass of suffering will occur in relation to "brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, etc".

What Bodhi is asserting makes no sense because it asserts sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, despair & the whole mass of suffering occur after the experience of aging & death.

Now how can a dead thing experience sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair? How silly!

I was banned from Dhammawheel.com for demolishing a bhikkhu in discussion on this very point, when in response to his insistance on Bodhi's stance, I said: "If that is the case, you appear to be asserting when teenagers commit suicide this is not due to their mental suffering because teenagers do not experience brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, etc."

The Buddha clearly taught on this subject in the Nakulapita Sutta. Bhikkhu Bodhi's position has no merits.

"So it is, householder. So it is. The body is afflicted, weak, & encumbered. For who, looking after this body, would claim even a moment of true health, except through sheer foolishness? So you should train yourself: 'Even though I may be afflicted in body, my mind will be unafflicted.' That is how you should train yourself." There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration

06-16-2010, 06:23 AM	#7
bestbyV Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 406 Senior Member	"And what, monks, is aging and death? The aging of beings in the various orders of beings, their old age, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of life, weakness of faculties -- this is called aging. The passing of beings out of the various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body -- this is called death. So this aging and this death are (together) called aging-and-death. "And what, monks, is birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, descent (into a womb), production, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact -- this is called birth." Bodhi completely missses the point here. First, there phrase "in a womb" does not exist in the Pali. But about death, all that is being said by the Buddha is due to attachment & birth, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, despair & the whole mass of suffering will occur in relation to "brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, etc". What Bodhi is asserting makes no sense because it asserts sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, despair & the whole mass of suffering occur after the experience of aging & death. Now how can a dead thing experience sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief & despair? How silly! I was banned from Dhammawheel.com for demolishing a bhikkhu in discussion on this very point, when in response to his insistance on Bodhi's stance, I said: "If that is the case, you appear to be asserting when teenagers commit suicide this is not due to their mental suffering because teenagers do not experience brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, etc." The Buddha clearly taught on this subject in the Nakulapita Sutta. Bhikkhu Bodhi's position has no merits. "So it is, householder. So it is. The body is afflicted, weak, & encumbered. For who, looking after this body, would claim even a moment of true health, except through sheer foolishness? So you should train yourself: 'Even though I may be afflicted in body, my mind will be unafflicted.' That is how you should train yourself." There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form (the body) to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He is seized with the idea that 'I am form' or 'Form is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his form changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration
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