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**BruceCroucshs** · 12-27-2011, 04:32 PM

I neither oppose nor support them simply because they are too vast and diverse in meaning containing elements that are Islamic and elements that are not Islamic. What I opposed is your black and white notion. With such notions what happens is that matters which are permitted in Islam are rejected based on popular association of it with those terms and moreover, the opposites of it are held as Islamic and thereby Saudi Arabia and al shabab or Ayotallah's Iran are conflated as true Islamic government.

Brother, it appears because you do not know what Islam says on the issue, you have allowed for some of the concepts of kufr to shape your viewpoint.

For example, 'because democracy in theory calls for accountability and transparency in governance, and these appear to be good and just, then democracy is permissible and good too'. Yes?

But in reality, the Islamic ruling system contains accountability and transparency without incorporating the political structures of democracy. The Prophet (saw) was profoundly scrupulous in governance. And the khulafa rashidoon exemplified the Prophet's (saaw) model by providing transparency and accountability in governance to a level which contemporary western civil governments simply fail to even approach.

Or 'because socialism supports egalatarian concepts of communal ownership which seems just and good, and Islam supports justice and good, then Islam supports socialism'. Yes?

In reality, Islam has unique and distinct definitions of ownership- such as natural resources are public property- which renders the revenue from natural sources for public use. However, that does NOT mean that socialism's definitions of ownership necessarily apply. Rather, Islam exists separate and distinct from these kufr ideologies.

Similarities do not imply compatibility. A lion and a horse both have four legs. That does not mean they are of the same species.

I wonder why the Jordanian al qaeda propogandist does not put takfir on the salafi al nour party for taking part in democracy ? Why do they not allow jihad against al nour party for supporting Kufr ? Why are Indonesians, Malaysians, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Turks, etc not considered Kafirs for practicising kufr? Such balatant contridictions are results of their innovated and completely flawed ideologys. The more these half mullahs are associated with Islam the more we will end up with dragging these contridictions onto Islam itself. Brother, why attack ideologies of Muslims while being silent on kufr ideologies which have plagued the Muslim world for generations? You take no position on socialism? Or secularism?
This telegraphs your inclinations.

It is better to study what ulama say about these kufr concepts and ideologies- meaning read what ulama say who declare them as kufr. Then you can actually see if you have a legitimate position to stand on. But don't simply look for ulama who comply with your present position, because your position is not tenable.

12-27-2011, 04:32 PM	#19
BruceCroucshs Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 718 Senior Member	I neither oppose nor support them simply because they are too vast and diverse in meaning containing elements that are Islamic and elements that are not Islamic. What I opposed is your black and white notion. With such notions what happens is that matters which are permitted in Islam are rejected based on popular association of it with those terms and moreover, the opposites of it are held as Islamic and thereby Saudi Arabia and al shabab or Ayotallah's Iran are conflated as true Islamic government. Brother, it appears because you do not know what Islam says on the issue, you have allowed for some of the concepts of kufr to shape your viewpoint. For example, 'because democracy in theory calls for accountability and transparency in governance, and these appear to be good and just, then democracy is permissible and good too'. Yes? But in reality, the Islamic ruling system contains accountability and transparency without incorporating the political structures of democracy. The Prophet (saw) was profoundly scrupulous in governance. And the khulafa rashidoon exemplified the Prophet's (saaw) model by providing transparency and accountability in governance to a level which contemporary western civil governments simply fail to even approach. Or 'because socialism supports egalatarian concepts of communal ownership which seems just and good, and Islam supports justice and good, then Islam supports socialism'. Yes? In reality, Islam has unique and distinct definitions of ownership- such as natural resources are public property- which renders the revenue from natural sources for public use. However, that does NOT mean that socialism's definitions of ownership necessarily apply. Rather, Islam exists separate and distinct from these kufr ideologies. Similarities do not imply compatibility. A lion and a horse both have four legs. That does not mean they are of the same species. I wonder why the Jordanian al qaeda propogandist does not put takfir on the salafi al nour party for taking part in democracy ? Why do they not allow jihad against al nour party for supporting Kufr ? Why are Indonesians, Malaysians, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Turks, etc not considered Kafirs for practicising kufr? Such balatant contridictions are results of their innovated and completely flawed ideologys. The more these half mullahs are associated with Islam the more we will end up with dragging these contridictions onto Islam itself. Brother, why attack ideologies of Muslims while being silent on kufr ideologies which have plagued the Muslim world for generations? You take no position on socialism? Or secularism? This telegraphs your inclinations. It is better to study what ulama say about these kufr concepts and ideologies- meaning read what ulama say who declare them as kufr. Then you can actually see if you have a legitimate position to stand on. But don't simply look for ulama who comply with your present position, because your position is not tenable.
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