DiscussWorldIssues - Socio-Economic Religion and Political Uncensored Debate - View Single Post

**Darlmtgq** · 12-28-2011, 04:40 PM

There, I think, we're having a problem. It certainly benefits a corporation to move their operations to, say, Mexico - or even a Southern state with anti-union laws - but as a nation it only hurts us. Even internally shifting to Republican states that hate unions isn't necessarily beneficial - as you said, it forces competitors to also find ways to reduce employee costs - which drives wages down, or sends jobs overseas altogether.

I think in the case of the high corporate profits it would be safer to say it results no thanks to the "invisible hand" more as a result of its inability to function. It's what I alluded to before, the prevalence of oligarchies and monopolies in some facets of the industry where the seller has near perfect control of the supply and demand there. That's where capitalisn abd socialism both run into roadblocks, elites can only exist when they're not effectively challenged, in the socialist system the elites just happen to be a mixture of government cronies in addition to the wall street fat cats.

What I don't think is that government will ever be an effective solution to that problem, at least not in the fashion it's currently being used, but it can certainly make it worse via bailouts and corporation friendly legislation that favors one competitor over the next via tax incentives and other mechanisms to attempt to steer the natural course of things. You've said it quite well in stating the government is nearly irrelevant to American elites, I would say that's true with the key exception to the extent that our government can help widen the gap, which in my mind is exactly why all that cash flows into political campaigns, the mechanisms can be devious or pragmatic but I think we can agree it wouldn't be even considered if they weren't of the opinion that doing so would accomplish something.

I'm not of the "lazy poor" mindset either necessarily, I'm not of the opinion the jobs aren't available because of the physical demands themselves, but because those that do have those physical demands sometimes coincide with those that have wage rates below our general average expectations, which is why illegal aliens and outsourced sources of labor often come into play. If a company can get the same functionality for significantly cheaper externally it doesn't cause me to raise an eyebrow if they should choose to utilize them. Let's face it, nobody is referring to the $45 per hour construction jobs when we're talking "physically demanding" labor that we're losing to foreign sources these days.

How people "Make it in America" is a fascinating question in and of itself. There is a portion (from what I've encountered a fairly significant minority of it) that accomplish it mainly by inheritance. Some start from a good place (think high middle class or lower upper class) and make their situation significantly better. Many rise many levels in their status over the period of their lifetimes, in the case of many in the Generation X community, actually achieve that even before their 30th birthdays (which in my mind has had a hugely detrimental impact on the mindsets of the Gen Y/Millenial mentalities towards engendering a solid work ethic). If you look at the averages (I'm not advocating collectivist analysis but I do see this occurring often), from the boomer crowd you get a lot stronger work ethic than the following generations. Gen X is sort of hit or miss, and everything after is becoming even more sporadic. (I won't get into my opinion on how media networks like E! and MTV, and various internet sources fall into that cultural influence). What I think of the younger crowd is not necessarily a factor of laziness but of damaged pride when being "forced" to take on the more menial tasks in society.

12-28-2011, 04:40 PM	#39
Darlmtgq Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 485 Senior Member	There, I think, we're having a problem. It certainly benefits a corporation to move their operations to, say, Mexico - or even a Southern state with anti-union laws - but as a nation it only hurts us. Even internally shifting to Republican states that hate unions isn't necessarily beneficial - as you said, it forces competitors to also find ways to reduce employee costs - which drives wages down, or sends jobs overseas altogether. I think in the case of the high corporate profits it would be safer to say it results no thanks to the "invisible hand" more as a result of its inability to function. It's what I alluded to before, the prevalence of oligarchies and monopolies in some facets of the industry where the seller has near perfect control of the supply and demand there. That's where capitalisn abd socialism both run into roadblocks, elites can only exist when they're not effectively challenged, in the socialist system the elites just happen to be a mixture of government cronies in addition to the wall street fat cats. What I don't think is that government will ever be an effective solution to that problem, at least not in the fashion it's currently being used, but it can certainly make it worse via bailouts and corporation friendly legislation that favors one competitor over the next via tax incentives and other mechanisms to attempt to steer the natural course of things. You've said it quite well in stating the government is nearly irrelevant to American elites, I would say that's true with the key exception to the extent that our government can help widen the gap, which in my mind is exactly why all that cash flows into political campaigns, the mechanisms can be devious or pragmatic but I think we can agree it wouldn't be even considered if they weren't of the opinion that doing so would accomplish something. I'm not of the "lazy poor" mindset either necessarily, I'm not of the opinion the jobs aren't available because of the physical demands themselves, but because those that do have those physical demands sometimes coincide with those that have wage rates below our general average expectations, which is why illegal aliens and outsourced sources of labor often come into play. If a company can get the same functionality for significantly cheaper externally it doesn't cause me to raise an eyebrow if they should choose to utilize them. Let's face it, nobody is referring to the $45 per hour construction jobs when we're talking "physically demanding" labor that we're losing to foreign sources these days. How people "Make it in America" is a fascinating question in and of itself. There is a portion (from what I've encountered a fairly significant minority of it) that accomplish it mainly by inheritance. Some start from a good place (think high middle class or lower upper class) and make their situation significantly better. Many rise many levels in their status over the period of their lifetimes, in the case of many in the Generation X community, actually achieve that even before their 30th birthdays (which in my mind has had a hugely detrimental impact on the mindsets of the Gen Y/Millenial mentalities towards engendering a solid work ethic). If you look at the averages (I'm not advocating collectivist analysis but I do see this occurring often), from the boomer crowd you get a lot stronger work ethic than the following generations. Gen X is sort of hit or miss, and everything after is becoming even more sporadic. (I won't get into my opinion on how media networks like E! and MTV, and various internet sources fall into that cultural influence). What I think of the younger crowd is not necessarily a factor of laziness but of damaged pride when being "forced" to take on the more menial tasks in society.
	Quote