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**thakitt** · 10-01-2010, 06:01 AM

If the practice itself actually produces the "placebo effect" isn't it working? If it take the 'props' of a medical procedure to 'fool' the mind into producing the effect, what's the difference? I'm playing devil's advocate here because I have indeed had great luck with acupuncture for a few different maladies and to great success.

I have bad knees and over 30 years and eight surgeries, arthritis, and an Air Force career they get painful. Anyone with arthritis will tell you it's worse in damp or cold weather and the ache is very deep in the bones. NSAIDs can't touch the pain but I have had acupuncture be very effective. I hope the practice becomes more widespread in military medicine.

Acupuncture is not science-based medicine and your anecdote for its purported "success" does not become evidence. There is nothing that distinguishes acupuncture from, say, magnet therapy or reiki. Both rely on the placebo effect to work. I see it as a waste of money and resources to train military doctors in something that is NOT viewed as mainstream medicine. Every dollar used to run the acupuncture clinic would be much better spent on program which use real medicine and real science to produce real effects.

Acupuncture is no more effective than a sugar pill. In fact, I can link you to studies in PubMed where sham acupuncture (that is, twirling toothpicks on the skin to simulate needle penetration) is just as effective as actual acupuncture, if you'd like to review the data. I can do the same for needling random spots vs the "specific locations", if you'd like. Same with an encompassing meta-analysis confirming the consensus that acupuncture is no more effective than placebo.

Even if you are willing to admit that it is simply placebo, why bother taking (read: wasting) the time and money to train military doctors? You could give an A1C a tube of toothpicks, have the patient roll onto their stomach, and he could "needle" random spots on your body, all to produce the same effect.

So really, tell me if you ever went to the doctors where he was touching, well, any part of you. He wore gloves every time, right?

Martha Lewis, 62, has a tiny gold acupuncture needle inserted in her ear by Air Force physician Col. Richard Niemtzow, at the acupuncture clinic on Andrews Air Force Base, Md., in December.
Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28930238/

Source: http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,164071,00.html

This shows a wanton, blatant disregard for sterile technique.
Example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18684094

Acupuncture has much to be desired when it comes to graduating from "alternative medicine" to "real medicine".

10-01-2010, 06:01 AM	#5
thakitt Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 555 Senior Member	If the practice itself actually produces the "placebo effect" isn't it working? If it take the 'props' of a medical procedure to 'fool' the mind into producing the effect, what's the difference? I'm playing devil's advocate here because I have indeed had great luck with acupuncture for a few different maladies and to great success. I have bad knees and over 30 years and eight surgeries, arthritis, and an Air Force career they get painful. Anyone with arthritis will tell you it's worse in damp or cold weather and the ache is very deep in the bones. NSAIDs can't touch the pain but I have had acupuncture be very effective. I hope the practice becomes more widespread in military medicine. Acupuncture is not science-based medicine and your anecdote for its purported "success" does not become evidence. There is nothing that distinguishes acupuncture from, say, magnet therapy or reiki. Both rely on the placebo effect to work. I see it as a waste of money and resources to train military doctors in something that is NOT viewed as mainstream medicine. Every dollar used to run the acupuncture clinic would be much better spent on program which use real medicine and real science to produce real effects. Acupuncture is no more effective than a sugar pill. In fact, I can link you to studies in PubMed where sham acupuncture (that is, twirling toothpicks on the skin to simulate needle penetration) is just as effective as actual acupuncture, if you'd like to review the data. I can do the same for needling random spots vs the "specific locations", if you'd like. Same with an encompassing meta-analysis confirming the consensus that acupuncture is no more effective than placebo. Even if you are willing to admit that it is simply placebo, why bother taking (read: wasting) the time and money to train military doctors? You could give an A1C a tube of toothpicks, have the patient roll onto their stomach, and he could "needle" random spots on your body, all to produce the same effect. So really, tell me if you ever went to the doctors where he was touching, well, any part of you. He wore gloves every time, right? Martha Lewis, 62, has a tiny gold acupuncture needle inserted in her ear by Air Force physician Col. Richard Niemtzow, at the acupuncture clinic on Andrews Air Force Base, Md., in December. Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28930238/ Source: http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,164071,00.html This shows a wanton, blatant disregard for sterile technique. Example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18684094 Acupuncture has much to be desired when it comes to graduating from "alternative medicine" to "real medicine".
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