[Sdinozes]

Saying that I was trying to evoke a sort of "Right View" when we witness our impuse and thoughts and how lust and urgency are at the root of a sexual misconduct. When we are not aware of our own urgency and lust there is no room for love, commitment and kindness and it will be probably that we will end in a kind of wrong sexual conduct haming our own and others feelings.

This is very wise and I agree with you.

from post #29

I do not dispute the logic and process the Sutta outlines. I do think within it however, there is an underlying premis that suffering is naturally caused by seeking sense pleasure. Although No.2 seems to directly state this, the focus is more on desire for the sensual experience causing the suffering. So if the person was to experience the sense pleasure for what it is, explore the nature of it mindfully, whilst in it, and go into it with good intentions to connect with the other holistically through this process, without focus on an outcomes like orgasm - is it not possible that the process of sex could be part of one's practice and be something that does not result in suffering? Perhaps it could enhance the way someone is as a sexual person, improve it, enable them to be more respectful and loving within the process?

So the opinion part is that sex, full stop, is to be avoided, full stop, because it logically, as outlined in 1-5, leads to suffering full stop.

Although this advice starts - "Monks..." I guess what is being advised is for the Monks, who are being asked to conform to a specific discipline that is part of religious adherence. I have no comment about this and the recommendation, as think it is correct for them and what they are doing. I appreciate that the level of commitment to practice is naturally more devout, and comes with greater levels of discipline and degree of practice for them, than for other non Monks and what they can do in the living of a typical western life.

When we come to live the Dharma in 2010, as non Monks, this sort of reasoning however can result in people questioning the experience of their sexual feelings and considering they have to manage them at all levels to a degree that can make them feel guilty if they do not achieve it. Is that not suffering as well? I was wondering whether, unless the OP is a Monk or seeking to become one, whether the question was about how non Monk practitioners work with this part of them, whilst still adhering to the Buddhist precepts, eight-fold path, practices. I was thinking that perhaps Tantra was offering a path for them that integrated Buddhism into sexuality and enabled practices, which were following a slightly different path of practice, but the same path of awareness and intent, with the same values.

The truth of what could be gained from this can only be described by someone who has trialled it and a comparative analysis about whether either, or both, lead to reduced suffering can only be done by the two getting together to describe what occurs on each path, or by someone who has walked both paths letting us know.

I am not trying to, or mean to be difficult, just exploring the possibility that there is a truth on the tantric sex path that is as valid as the one on the sexual abstinence path. Perhaps both have a different method (with some opposing opinions - sense exploration will lead to suffering vs sense exploration is another Tao), Yet take the person to a similar place of awareness and spiritual capacity? And maybe the truth and methodology is one that could be worthwhile, for practitioners who are not needing to practice abstinence and want a way to integrate sexuality into their spiritual life? I guess asking by this - is it as black and white as all that? Is the advice for Monks, the same and appropriate ones that others should feel as bound by? As the degree of devout practice being recommended and it's rationale is more aligned to Monastry living and challenges, than to those faced by people living in a western world, within the context of relationships, having families etc.