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**payporanymn** · 09-13-2010, 07:31 PM

I also heard that the reason why you're a Jew if your mother is a Jew is because back in the day (When there was no genetic tests), they knew 100% who your mother was since you come out of her, but with your father it's an assumption that he is the father, one can never be 100% sure with the paternal side.

Thats what i have heard too. Keep in mind there have long been risks for religious intermarriage between Jews. Admixture within Jewish gene pools doesn't look to have been constant either generally, but occured in different historic phases if you look at the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.

Me personally? I think Judaism is more of a religion than an ethnic group, not that there are no real Jews out there, but the fact that you allow people of total different heritage to convert and become Jews right off the bat allows the gene pool to be mixed, which makes the definition of ethnic group rather difficult, you also cannot say that these people are never Jewish because the reality is, those who convert and actually live up to it become real Jews and start marrying Jews, which they pass their genes to the real Jews I often heard you could either be a religious Jew, an ethnic Jew, or both and that contemporary converts can only be considered religious Jews. Dean might need to inform me about this. Your line of argument is basically just saying that within the Jewish genepool there are converts and that this practically denounces the possibility of such Jewish ethnic groups possibly existing. I take it you are arguing this from a genetic perspective. What i should point out than is that all people going back descend from many other peoples, regardless whether some boast a greater sense of genealogical isolation. What i think will debunk the notion of a genetic ethnicity is their PCA positions on plots. Notice different Jewish groups all cluster in designated areas? You cannot deny that, like i cannot deny that Assyrians are forming their own also. Therefore what we can safely say is that both groups obviously have a unique broader geneaology pattern, irrespective whether they absorbed different ethnic groups or not. These patterns seem very consistent. If you look at the K admixture panel tests, there is such an even cut-off between Jewish groups, there is a lack of fluctuating Northern European, Mozabite or Southern European ancestry panels. This is the reality.

Edit: Your right that Jew per se . . . . is not a valid genetic ethnicity. The different ethnic branches on the other hand are. Italian, Greek, Bulgarian and Turkish Jews for example form a very very tight knit group on the PCA plots interestingly. They fit past Greece with the Cypriots and within Druze boundaries. Ashkenazi Jews (little pull NE from them) otherwise come close, however slightly form their own, same goes for Moroccan Jews. (little pull towards Egypt)

09-13-2010, 07:31 PM	#18
payporanymn Join Date Oct 2005 Posts 444 Senior Member	I also heard that the reason why you're a Jew if your mother is a Jew is because back in the day (When there was no genetic tests), they knew 100% who your mother was since you come out of her, but with your father it's an assumption that he is the father, one can never be 100% sure with the paternal side. Thats what i have heard too. Keep in mind there have long been risks for religious intermarriage between Jews. Admixture within Jewish gene pools doesn't look to have been constant either generally, but occured in different historic phases if you look at the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. Me personally? I think Judaism is more of a religion than an ethnic group, not that there are no real Jews out there, but the fact that you allow people of total different heritage to convert and become Jews right off the bat allows the gene pool to be mixed, which makes the definition of ethnic group rather difficult, you also cannot say that these people are never Jewish because the reality is, those who convert and actually live up to it become real Jews and start marrying Jews, which they pass their genes to the real Jews I often heard you could either be a religious Jew, an ethnic Jew, or both and that contemporary converts can only be considered religious Jews. Dean might need to inform me about this. Your line of argument is basically just saying that within the Jewish genepool there are converts and that this practically denounces the possibility of such Jewish ethnic groups possibly existing. I take it you are arguing this from a genetic perspective. What i should point out than is that all people going back descend from many other peoples, regardless whether some boast a greater sense of genealogical isolation. What i think will debunk the notion of a genetic ethnicity is their PCA positions on plots. Notice different Jewish groups all cluster in designated areas? You cannot deny that, like i cannot deny that Assyrians are forming their own also. Therefore what we can safely say is that both groups obviously have a unique broader geneaology pattern, irrespective whether they absorbed different ethnic groups or not. These patterns seem very consistent. If you look at the K admixture panel tests, there is such an even cut-off between Jewish groups, there is a lack of fluctuating Northern European, Mozabite or Southern European ancestry panels. This is the reality. Edit: Your right that Jew per se . . . . is not a valid genetic ethnicity. The different ethnic branches on the other hand are. Italian, Greek, Bulgarian and Turkish Jews for example form a very very tight knit group on the PCA plots interestingly. They fit past Greece with the Cypriots and within Druze boundaries. Ashkenazi Jews (little pull NE from them) otherwise come close, however slightly form their own, same goes for Moroccan Jews. (little pull towards Egypt)
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